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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:03AM
#1
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Wandering Monsters: Orcs and GnollsJames WyattIn a recent Rule-of-Three article, Rodney Thompson talked a little bit about our approach to monster design. That column was well-timed, because we’re starting a big push on monsters right now. The D&D Story Team is leading the charge on this effort for the moment, and this column is a place for us to share what we’re thinking so that we can solicit your input. Talk about this article here.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:07AM
#2
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Reposting my comments on the article page.
The description of orcs sounds too much like the ape-like orcs of 3rd edition which I hated (and I don't mean that in a good way). I want more Tolkienesque orcs. I want them to be a bit more sophisticated, wearing more than hides and primitive armors. They should be skilled, being capable of making or building things, but prefering to plunder instead. I also don't like the near animal intelligence the article describes. I want orcs that are unpredictable because they aren't dumb brutes.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:30AM
#3
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Reposting my comments on the article page.
The description of orcs sounds too much like the ape-like orcs of 3rd edition which I hated (and I don't mean that in a good way). I want more Tolkienesque orcs. I want them to be a bit more sophisticated, wearing more than hides and primitive armors. They should be skilled, being capable of making or building things, but prefering to plunder instead. I also don't like the near animal intelligence the article describes. I want orcs that are unpredictable because they aren't dumb brutes.
In the D&D'verse that are the goblins (goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears). It should be noted that orcs in Lord of the Rings are also called goblins and show the same variation in appearances and skill as the goblinoid race in D&D.
I don't like the ape-like savages of D&D either, but I feel there are way too many different humanoid species anyway, so I usually just stick with goblinoids, giants and gnolls when it comes to monstrous humanoids 
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:31AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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Repost of my comment:
Although it is informative, the article missing the most important parts: Battle tactics. The article is a little too light on this.
I don't like gnolls as cowardly. If they are going to make gnolls into humanoid spotted hyenas,then they have to cut that cowardly bit out and make them as ferocious and aggressive as the leapard-chasing hyena of the wild. Gnolls should be seen as oppurtunists like many predatory pack animals. They should be known for ambushes, attacking the weak and tired,and standing the ground when not outnumbered. I suggest a quick read on hyenas.
Or I should watch less nature shows about carnivores. So many wildebeest, so little time.
Additions:
I think the key aspect of gnolls is that they are sick and depraved. They value blood and gore like we do gold. So cowardice just makes little sense. They are more like Firefly's Reavers except the females are in charge and there is no overheated shape ships.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:34AM
#5
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Reposting my comments on the article page.
The description of orcs sounds too much like the ape-like orcs of 3rd edition which I hated (and I don't mean that in a good way). I want more Tolkienesque orcs. I want them to be a bit more sophisticated, wearing more than hides and primitive armors. They should be skilled, being capable of making or building things, but prefering to plunder instead. I also don't like the near animal intelligence the article describes. I want orcs that are unpredictable because they aren't dumb brutes.
Yeah, I know what you mean. They got both close, but not quite right. The Orcs should be using peicemeal armor and scavenged weapons and the Gnolls need to use primitive weapons and hide armor.
Really they need to paint the Orcs as a fallen race of elves or something...
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:44AM
#6
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Really they need to paint the Orcs as a fallen race of elves or something...
I don't think they need to go that far in copying Tolkien, but having them look like barely sentient mountain gorillas isn't the right path either. I didn't even mind the pig-men of 1e as much as I hate the apes.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:50AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 22, 2012
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In the D&D'verse that are the goblins (goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears). It should be noted that orcs in Lord of the Rings are also called goblins and show the same variation in appearances and skill as the goblinoid race in D&D.
To follow up on that point, if the goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears of the D&D world are more like the goblins, orcs, and Uruk-Hai of Tolkien's world then I'm a lot more accepting of the D&D orc as a dumb brutish monster. I begin to see them as more like the subhumans in the movie Fire and Ice.
I do like the description of the gnolls. The "cowardly" thing does work for me on some level - in that the follow up was that they flee from a fight that turns against them - which I think falls more in line with the "opportunistic" approach that others have commented on. Perhaps just a poor choice of words in the article. But the depraved, demon-worshipping aspect of gnolls is good, it's something to differentiate them a little bit.
And yes, I too would have liked to see a little more battle tactics.
What's the matter, you dissentious rogues,
That rubbing the poor itch of your opinion
Make yourselves scabs?
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:54AM
#8
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I don't think they need to go that far in copying Tolkien, but having them look like barely sentient mountain gorillas isn't the right path either. I didn't even mind the pig-men of 1e as much as I hate the apes.
Gamorreans!
I'd like to see orcs presented with an actual culture, not stupid ape guys who just happen to find enough outlying farms to raid to make it through winter. Martial prowess should be very important but so should cunning, for only those who are strong and smart will live long enough to become a leader in a chaotic evil society. Piecemeal armor and scavenged weapons don't bug me as much. Trophies from fallen foes and all that.
EDIT: So after reading what I wrote again, I realize what I want in D&D is WH40K orks. Fighty and Cunnin' or Cunnin' and Fighty.
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 5:12AM
#9
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Repost of my comment: Although it is informative, the article missing the most important parts: Battle tactics. The article is a little too light on this. I don't like gnolls as cowardly. If they are going to make gnolls into humanoid spotted hyenas,then they have to cut that cowardly bit out and make them as ferocious and aggressive as the leapard-chasing hyena of the wild. Gnolls should be seen as oppurtunists like many predatory pack animals. They should be known for ambushes, attacking the weak and tired,and standing the ground when not outnumbered. I suggest a quick read on hyenas. Or I should watch less nature shows about carnivores. So many wildebeest, so little time. Additions: I think the key aspect of gnolls is that they are sick and depraved. They value blood and gore like we do gold. So cowardice just makes little sense. They are more like Firefly's Reavers except the females are in charge and there is no overheated shape ships.
Reposting my comments on the article page.
The description of orcs sounds too much like the ape-like orcs of 3rd edition which I hated (and I don't mean that in a good way). I want more Tolkienesque orcs. I want them to be a bit more sophisticated, wearing more than hides and primitive armors. They should be skilled, being capable of making or building things, but prefering to plunder instead. I also don't like the near animal intelligence the article describes. I want orcs that are unpredictable because they aren't dumb brutes.
Yeah, I know what you mean. They got both close, but not quite right. The Orcs should be using peicemeal armor and scavenged weapons and the Gnolls need to use primitive weapons and hide armor.
Really they need to paint the Orcs as a fallen race of elves or something...
In the D&D'verse that are the goblins (goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears). It should be noted that orcs in Lord of the Rings are also called goblins and show the same variation in appearances and skill as the goblinoid race in D&D.
To follow up on that point, if the goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears of the D&D world are more like the goblins, orcs, and Uruk-Hai of Tolkien's world then I'm a lot more accepting of the D&D orc as a dumb brutish monster. I begin to see them as more like the subhumans in the movie Fire and Ice.
I do like the description of the gnolls. The "cowardly" thing does work for me on some level - in that the follow up was that they flee from a fight that turns against them - which I think falls more in line with the "opportunistic" approach that others have commented on. Perhaps just a poor choice of words in the article. But the depraved, demon-worshipping aspect of gnolls is good, it's something to differentiate them a little bit.
And yes, I too would have liked to see a little more battle tactics.
OK, tower of quotes but basically, this covers my position (Gnolls are not cowardly, their smart.).!!!!
Orcs as subhuman idiots, not to fond of that either, ferocious and brutal, yes, incapable of functioning without something to steal, Inconceivable!
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10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 5:18AM
#10
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As long as they don't return to the pig-orc look of the 1980s, I'm fine.
I also prefer to see my orcs with a healthier dose of classic Tolkien, but I'll accept the "ape-man" look. I've always imagined orcs as being some evolutionary offshoot from or h. erectus with overdeveloped lower canines and goblins as some sort of particularly vile version of h. floresiensis. I don't care for the modern Warhammer/Warcraft style, hulking bodybuilder orcs. Even big orcs in Tolkien's work are described as "almost man-high." Thus, they shouldn't be bigger than humans, and I'd rather they didn't have a bonus to Strength. But if they wind up with one, it's not going to drive me away from D&D Next.
But please, no pig-orcs. Ick.
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