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Jul 30, 2012 -- 12:01AM, Vikingkingq wrote:

Ok, here's Round 3 of looking at the Fighter, following up from the last thread.

Last time, we talked about how the addition of weapon-specialization themes fit into what we knew about the Fighter, namely that there was a theme-based maneuver system and improvised action system in core, narrative and tactical combat modules, and an undetermined fighter class mechanic. 
 
The latest Legends and Lore Article has now shown us the first iteration of the Fighter Class Mechanic - Combat Superiority - and it looks quite promising. The mechanic is rather intuitive from first glance: the Fighter gets a certain number of dice each round that can be rolled and added as bonus damage or bonus damage resistance, or to pull off certain maneuvers by expending dice without rolling them. 

These manuevers seem to allow the Fighter to fill in roles they held in previous editions - attacks of opportunity, shielding allies, etc. - but requiring players to make an active choice as to how they want to play. 

There is one element that is unclear. According to the article, "The combat superiority system drains some of the elements we had originally intended for the maneuver and theme system, but we’re fine with that. In our minds, the fighter is an expert with weapons....a fighter might have a combat superiority option that allows for two-weapon fighting that is better than the version offered by a feat. In a manner similar to backgrounds and themes, the fighter class presents a set of combat superiority options in prebuilt packages, such as archer or duelist. You’ll also have the option to pick and choose abilities to build your own fighting style. In the current design, you gain two options at 1st level and one option each at 3rd, 7th, and 9th level."

I'm not entirely sure how a system based around dice-rolling and/or expending works with weapon expertise. My guess is that the packages in question offer a class-specific set of maneuvers that are focused around weapon specialization, which might be something like the 4e Ranger's Twin Strike and Dire Wolverine Strike for the Two-Weapon Package. I somehow doubt that it will be a passive bonus however.

The larger question that remains is: what does the theme-manuever system look like now?

It seems to have been fairly gutted by the Fighter class, but I don't think this is necessarily the case. One possibility is that the Rogue Schemes and Ranger [Class Mechanic TBD] will carve off more martial theme-manuevers into their classes in order to make class iconic maneuvers available that are distinct from those of the Fighter. For example, I could see Rogue Schemes giving access to manuevers that are derived from dirty fighting or ambushes, whereas the Ranger might have hit-and-run or trap manuevers. 

 

Hopefully they are giving each class a 'scheme' like mechanic with 'combat superiority' being the fighter version.

Jul 30, 2012 -- 12:01AM, Vikingkingq wrote:

The latest Legends and Lore Article has now shown us the first iteration of the Fighter Class Mechanic - Combat Superiority - and it looks quite promising. The mechanic is rather intuitive from first glance: the Fighter gets a certain number of dice each round that can be rolled and added as bonus damage or bonus damage resistance, or to pull off certain maneuvers by expending dice without rolling them.  

It's effectively an at-will customization mechanic that consumes the damage bonus you gain from leveling.  Remember that 5e's bounded accuracy leaves damage as the key thing that scales our combat effectiveness as you level.  The article makes it clear that Combat Superiority dice are gained as you level, so it's a scaling damage mechanic for the fighter (like SA is for the rogue or magic missile does for the wizard).  

While making them 'dice' is new in the same since that taking healing surges and making them into hit 'dice' is new, that mechanism of trading off your level gains for some other options isn't.  In 3.x, you could build quite an interesting fighter by taking feats like Power Attack and Expertise that let you trade-out some of your BAB for bonuses to damage or AC, respectively.  While you were giving up something pretty critical, there were times when that sort of fine-tuning could be marginally effective, and making that happen could be pretty interesting.  

The flaw is that trading in something that makes you level-apropriate for something 'interesting' leaves you behind the curve when you do so.  The 3.x fighter had the 'best' BAB, but he wasn't alone in that.   If the 5e Fighter's CSdice represent a lot more scaling damage than other classes get, then their use for damage may be just too effective to trade out often.  Conversely, if they're only about on par, then trading them out leaves the fighter hitting ineffectually.  

I'd need to see how the CS system works along side the other classes and whatever damage scaling they get to be sure, but I think I'd rather see the fighter get some choice/interest/versatility, without having to sacrifice basic combat ability for it.

Jul 30, 2012 -- 1:57AM, Philip wrote:

I really doubt that they would make such a fundemental mistake.

There have been a number of fundamental mistakes made over the last 4 years or so.  From getting 'the math' slightly wrong onwards.  At this point I'll believe what I actually see.  I don't mind speculating, but it's just speculation.