Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Return to AD&D style ability scores?
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 3:23PM #1
Lawolf
Date Joined: May 4, 2008
Posts: 4,308
Currently ability scores give too much of a bonus to work with bounded accuracy. Especially if each attribute will be a defense. The difference between a 6 and a 20 is 7 points of bonus. High strength monsters like giants with Str 22+ will gain huge accuracy bonuses that go far beyond the bounds of the games math. Additionally some attributes gain too much benefit so a high score becomes very important.

I propose a reduced rate of attribute bonus increases:
3-5: -2
6-8: -1
9-11: +0
12-14: +1
15-17: +2
18-20: +3
Etc.

This will help keep math bounded. It will serve to allow players to spread out ability scores instead of hyper focusing (20 no longer gives +5, and only a 15 is for +2 the second highest bonus available to PCs).  This will keep distributions from rolled attributes more balanced and limit the extremes from optimization. It will also limit the value of superstats (20 Dex will give +3 AC, skills, saves, and initiative instead of +5).  All stats will be relatively weaker meaning the differences in usefulness between them will be less pronounced (all stats will be more equal).  It also allows for high attribute monsters that do not break bounded accuracy.
Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 3:28PM #2
anjelika
Date Joined: Jun 9, 2012
Posts: 2,081
That's classic D&D (BECMI), although it was 13-15, 16-17, and 18 for +1/2/3.  That aside (and realizing your ranges are meant to be 'suggested' and not 'exactly what it was'), I'm not averse to it.
Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 3:35PM #3
BhaelFire
Date Joined: Jul 2, 2012
Posts: 703
Some consideration should be given to the possibilty that exceptionally high scores may be harder to come by in Next (or at least not without some sacrifice in other abilities). So that when you do have a very high score or two, the benefits are really noticeable.
D&D Next - Basic and Expert Editions Show

I firmly believe that there should be two editions of the game; the core rules released as a "Basic" set and a more complicated expanded rules edition released as an "Expert" set. These two editions would provide separate entry points to the game; one for new players or players that want a more classic D&D game and another entry point for experienced gamers that want more options and all the other things they have come to expect from previous editions.

Also, they must release several rules modules covering the main elements of the game (i.e., classes, races, combat, magic, monsters, etc.) upon launch to further expand the game for those that still need more complexity in a particular element of the game.



Here's a mockup of the Basic Set I created.



(CLICK HERE TO VIEW LARGER IMAGE)
  


Basic Set


This boxed set contains a simple, "bare bones" edition of the game; the core rules. It's for those that want a rules-light edition of the game that is extremely modifiable or for new players that get intimidated easily by too many rules and/or options. The Basic Set contains everything needed to play with all the "classic" D&D races (i.e., Human, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling) and classes (i.e., Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard) all the way up to maximum level (i.e., 20th Level).

The Basic boxed set contains:


Quick Start Rules
A "choose your own way" adventure intended as an intro to RPGs and basic D&D terms.

Player's Handbook
(Softcover, 125 pages)
Features rules for playing the classic D&D races and classes all the way up to 20th level.

Dungeon Master's Guide

(Softcover, 125 pages)
Includes the basic rules for dungeon masters.

Monster Manual
(Softcover, 100 pages)
Includes all the classic iconic monsters from D&D. 

Introductory Adventure
(Keep on the Borderlands)
An introductory adventure for beginning players and DMs.

Also includes: 

Character Sheets
Reference Sheets
Set of Dice




Expert Set


A set of hardbound rules that contains the core rules plus expanded races and classes, more spells and a large selection of optional rules modules — that is, pretty much everything that experienced players have come to expect. Each expert edition manual may be purchased separately, or in a boxed set. The Expert set includes:


Expert PHB (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus 10 playable races, 10 character classes, expanded selection of spells and rules modules for players.)
Expert DMG (Hardcover, 250 pages. $35 Includes core rules plus expanded rules modules for DMs.)
Expert MM (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes an expanded list of monsters and creatures to challenge characters)




Expansions


These expansion rules modules can be used with both the Basic and Expert sets. Each expansion covers one specific aspect of the game, such as character creation, combat, spells, monsters, etc.) 


Hall of Heroes (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes a vast selection of playable character races and classes, new and old all in one book)
Combat and Tactics (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes dozens of new and old optional rules for combat all in one book)
Creature Compendium (Hardcover, 350 pages.$35 Includes hundreds of monsters, new and old all in one book)
The Grimoire (Hardcover, 225 pages. $35 Includes hundreds of new and old spells all in one book)












A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage Show

A Million Hit Points of Light: Shedding Light on Damage and Hit Points


In my personal campaigns, I use the following system for damage and dying. It's a slight modification of the long-standing principles etsablished by the D&D game, only with a new definition of what 0 or less hit points means. I've been using it for years because it works really well. However, I've made some adjustments to take advantage of the D&D Next rules. I've decided to present the first part in a Q&A format for better clarity. So let's begin...


What are hit points?
The premise is very simple, but often misunderstood; hit points are an abstraction that represent the character's ability to avoid serious damage, not necessarily their ability to take serious damage. This is a very important distinction. They represent a combination of skillful maneuvering, toughness, stamina and luck. Some targets have more hit points because they are physically tougher and are harder to injure...others have more because they are experienced combatants and have learned how to turn near fatal blows into mere scratches by skillful maneuvering...and then others are just plain lucky. Once a character runs out of hit points they become vulnerable to serious life-threatening injuries.


So what exactly does it mean to "hit" with a successful attack roll, then?
It means that through your own skill and ability you may have wounded your target if the target lacks the hit points to avoid the full brunt of the attack. That's an important thing to keep in mind; a successful "hit" does not necessarily mean you physically damaged your target. It just means that your attack was well placed and forced the target to exert themselves in such a way as to leave them vulnerable to further attacks. For example, instead of severing the target's arm, the attack merely grazes them leaving a minor cut.


But the attack did 25 points of damage! Why did it only "graze" the target?
Because the target has more than 25 hit points. Your attack forced them to exert a lot of energy to avoid the attack, but because of their combat skill, toughness, stamina and luck, they managed to avoid being seriously injured. However, because of this attack, they may not have the reserves to avoid your next attack. Perhaps you knocked them off balance or the attack left them so fatigued they lack the stamina to evade another attack. It's the DM's call on how they want to narrate the exact reason the blow didn't kill or wound the target.


Yeah, but what about "touch" attacks that rely on physical contact?
Making physical contact with a target is a lot different than striking them, so these types of attacks are the exception. If a touch attack succeeds, the attacker manages to make contact with their target.


If hit points and weapon damage don't always represent actual damage to the target, then what does it represent?
Think of the damage from an attack as more like a "threat level" rather than actual physical damage that transfers directly to the target's body. That is, the more damage an attack does, the harder it is to avoid serious injury. For example, an attack that causes 14 points of damage is more likely to wound the target than 3 points of damage (depending on how many hit points the target has left). The higher the damage, the greater the chance is that the target will become seriously injured. So, an attack that does 34 points of damage could be thought of as a "threat level of 34." If the target doesn't have the hit points to negate that threat, they become seriously injured.


Ok, but shouldn't armor reduce the amount of damage delivered from an attack?
It does reduce damage; by making it harder for an attack to cause serious injury. A successful hit against an armored target suggests that the attack may have circumvented the target's armor by striking in a vulnerable area.


What about poison and other types of non-combat damage?
Hit point loss from non-physical forms of damage represents the character spitting the poison out just in time before it takes full strength or perhaps the poison just wasn't strong enough to affect them drastically, but still weakens them. Again, it's the DMs call on how to narrate the reasons why the character avoids serious harm from the damage.


If hit points don't don't represent actual damage then how does that make sense with spells like Cure Serious Wounds and other forms of healing like healer kits with bandages?
Hit points do represent some physical damage, just not serious physical damage. Healing magic and other forms of healing still affect these minor wounds just as well as more serious wounds. For example, bandaging up minor cuts and abrasions helps the character rejuvenate and relieve the pain and/or fatigue of hit point loss. The key thing to remember is that it's an abstraction that allows the DM freedom to interpret and narrate it as they see fit.

What if my attack reduces the target to 0 or less hit points?
If a player is reduced to 0 or less hit points they are wounded. If a monster or NPC is reduce to 0 or less hit points they are killed.


Why are monsters killed immediately and not players?
Because unless the monsters are crucial to the story, it makes combat resolution much faster. It is assumed that players immediately execute a coup de grace on wounded monsters as a finishing move.


What if a character is wounded by poison or other types of non-physical damage?
If a character becomes wounded from non-combat damage they still receive the effects of being wounded, regardless if they show any physical signs of injury (i.e., internal injuries are still considered injuries).


Ok. I get it...but what happens once a character is wounded?
See below.
 


Damage and Dying


Once a character is reduced to 0 or less hit points, they start taking real damage. In other words, their reserves have run out and they can no longer avoid taking serious damage.


  1. Characters are fully operational as long as they have 1 hit point or more. They may have minor cuts, bruises, and superficial wounds, but they are are not impaired significantly. 

  2. Once they reach 0 or less hit points, they become Wounded (see below).That is, they have sustained a wound that impairs their ability to perform actions.

  3. If they reach a negative amount of hit points equal or greater than their Constitution score, they are Incapacitated. This means they are in critical condition and could possibly die.

  4. Characters will die if their hit points reach a negative amount greater than their Constitution score, plus their current level.



Unharmed: 1 hp or more
Wounded: 0 hp or less
Incapacitated: -(Constitution) to -(Constitution+Level)
Dead: Less than -(Constitution +Level)


Wounded
When the character reaches 0 or less hit points they become wounded. Wounded characters receive disadvantage on all attacks and saving throws until they heal back up to 1 hit point or more. This allows for a transitory stage between healthy and dying, without having to mess around with impairment rules while the character still has hit points left.


Incapacitated
Characters begin dying when they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution score. At which point, they must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw on each of their following turns (the disadvantage from being wounded does not apply for these saving throws).

If successful, the character remains dying, but their condition does not worsen.


If the saving throw fails, another DC 10 Constitution saving throw must be made. If that one fails, the character succumbs to their wounds and dies. If successful, the character stabilizes and is no longer dying.

Finally, if a dying character receives first aid or healing at any point, they immediately stabilize.


Dead
Characters will die if they reach a negative amount of hit points equal to their Constitution, plus their current level. Thus, if an 8th level character with a Constitution score of 12 is down to 4 hit points then takes 24 points of damage (reducing their hit points to -20) the attack kills them outright.

Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 3:39PM #4
Lawolf
Date Joined: May 4, 2008
Posts: 4,308
I did give notice to that somewhat in that 18 still grants a +1 over a 17.  This means that anyone lucky (or diligent) enough to get an 18 will still see the same increase. The total bonus is just lower and you only need to buy a 15 to be "runner up".  The optimizes will still point buy (or fake rolls) for their 18s but they will not be leagues ahead of "joe rolled poorly" or "Fred the slightly above average".
Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 3:58PM #5
thestoryteller
Date Joined: Jun 4, 2012
Posts: 808

Jul 27, 2012 -- 3:23PM, Lawolf wrote:

All stats will be relatively weaker meaning the differences in usefulness between them will be less pronounced (all stats will be more equal).


I really object to this kind of thinking.  Making everything equally crappy just makes the stats not matter as much.

It doesn't make the guy with his stats spread out better, it just makes his choice to be spread out less valuable.  And it makes every +1 even more valuable than before, meaning that the 18 is so much more important (going from 17 to 18 raises your bonus by 50% rather than by 1/3).  

Your system does close the gap between the guy who rolled a 17 and the guy who rolled a 10, but it doesn't help the guy who chose to take all 12-14s instead of going for an 18.

The only way to fix that (and I am generally opposed to dump stats in RPGs) is to make every stat more valuable regardless of character.  Dexterity is a decent example of a stat everyone wants, as is Constitution (don't listen to all the people claiming not adding to Max HP makes it suck--the bonus to healing is a huge deal).  We just need to make the others like them. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 4:12PM #6
Lawolf
Date Joined: May 4, 2008
Posts: 4,308
Story: the difference is that in my system someone could easily take a few 15s instead of a single 18.  Now they are pretty good a a few different things than amazing at 1 thing. And the difference between the 15 and the 18 is only a +1 bonus (not huge all in all).  Compare to the guy who chooses to go for an 18 or 20 in one thing at the expense of all others in the current method. Additionally these numbers are fairly close to pre 3e D&D which did not have some of te issues you are worried about occurring.
Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 4:17PM #7
Maxperson
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 22,514

Jul 27, 2012 -- 4:12PM, Lawolf wrote:

Story: the difference is that in my system someone could easily take a few 15s instead of a single 18. Now they are pretty good a a few different things than amazing at 1 thing. And the difference between the 15 and the 18 is only a +1 bonus (not huge all in all). Compare to the guy who chooses to go for an 18 or 20 in one thing at the expense of all others in the current method. Additionally these numbers are fairly close to pre 3e D&D which did not have some of te issues you are worried about occurring.




The problem is that the difference between a 15 and an 18 does not result in an 18 being amazing.  An 18 is only amazing relative to the 15 if it is more tha +1 better.  I think 18-19 should be +4 and if you get to 20, it should be +5.  Even with bounded accuracy, an extra + or two should mess things up too badly.

Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 4:26PM #8
Philip
Date Joined: Nov 19, 2001
Posts: 879
opps I posted on the wrong thread, but I agree with storyteller and others on this one, I like stats to have more variance in bonuses.  To me they mean more.
Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 4:42PM #9
CCS
Date Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 3,538

Jul 27, 2012 -- 3:23PM, Lawolf wrote:

I propose a reduced rate of attribute bonus increases: 3-5: -2 6-8: -1 9-11: +0 12-14: +1 15-17: +2 18-20: +3 Etc.




Looks fine to me....  (but then I'm 100% OK with AD&D1e)

Just remember to allow for racial modifiers (ggo & bad) & the ability for players to subtract 2 from a score in order to raise another by +1.

Quick Reply
Cancel
11 months ago  ::  Jul 27, 2012 - 4:58PM #10
Alynn
Date Joined: Jan 20, 2005
Posts: 363
I can't remember what edition this was in, but I remember that you could futher split your stats if you chose to do so. So someone with a 15 Dex could have a 17 for inititive and attack, but a 13 for defense and saves, or something like that. For charisma it was split into leadership and comliness. If I remember right you could take your average add 2 to one side of the ability, and had to remove 2 from the other side of the ability.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like that for a module.

That being said, currently I'm good with the current (ability - 10)/2. As long as the math works with it.

With this system I don't think we will be seeing a lot of dump stats, since every single ability has a function. Dumping CHA as a fighter means you know you are probably going to get dominated quite a bit.
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing