|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 8:55PM
#1
|
|
|
This is tangentially related to the whole martial/caster disparity/balance issue, but I feel like it's interesting and noteworthy enough to discuss separately.
I've been thinking a lot about the suggestion for "mythic" level martial characters lately. I've been remembering/refreshing myself on a lot of source material for D&D's classes and enjoying assigning classes to various characters. I've seen lots of examples of Figthers (Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Siegfried, Achilles, Cuchulainn, Gimli, Conan, Fafhrd, John Carter, etc.), Rogues (Odysseus, Gray Mouser, arguably Hunahpu and Xbalanque depending on how literal you believe their resurrection tricks were, Reynard the Fox, Bilbo, Ali Baba, etc.), and even spell-less Rangers (Aragorn--well, ok, he could do minor rituals--Robin Hood, Richard Rahl, Monster-Slayer and He-Who-Cuts-the-Life-from-the-Enemy).
Then I began musing on the spellcasters in myth/legend and fiction. But I realized something--the super strong spellcaster that outdoes the "martials" in all ways absolutely exists in fiction, but pretty much never as a protagonist.
Almost every example of a spellcaster (and for that matter, super-awesome craftsman, but that's a conversation for another time) I can find in myth/legend or even just in pop culture fall into one of three categories:
1) The character has full blown NPC status, where they fulfill, essentially, the magical helper role in the Heroes' Journey. They help the hero, but are not heroes themselves. They are wildly more powerful than the main characters, but unable to fill the non-spellcaster's heroic role for reasons that may or may not make much sense. For example: Gandalf, Merlin, Allanon, Aslan, Spider Woman (in the Diné Bahaneʼ)
2) The character exists in a setting in which all major characters have supernatural powers, so, there aren't really any martial characters to compare them to. Examples: Harry Potter, Harry Dresden (mostly--the cop isn't supernatural, but she's pretty much the only character that matters who isn't), most Anime
3) The character exists in fiction written specifically for D&D, so it conforms to the expectations of the game. Examples: Raistlin, Elminster
To be honest, the only examples I could come up with of a spellcaster filling the role of a co-protagonist with otherwise martial characters are from:
A) The TV show Legend of the Seeker (yes, I know it's based on the Sword of Truth books, but having seen the show and not read the books, I don't want to misrepresent anything). Zed is portrayed as a powerful wizard, but he is often neutralized via mundane means and his spells appear to have unusual restrictions and limitations that lead to the cast utilizing a "martial" solution to most problems (with Zed mostly just throwing fire around).
B) Ged from Earthsea is kind of a weird blend of 1 and 2 above as well as a co-protagonist. But his story was written specifically to protagonize characters like Merlin or Gandalf and give the history of how they got to be these uber powerful figures in others' heroic stories.
Am I incorrect? Can anyone else come up with an example that involves a spellcaster and a non-spellcaster that are equally protagonized?
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:05PM
#2
|
|
|
What you say is true. But how do you handle that in a game? Do you make PC spellcasters adhere to stricter limitations than NPC spellcasters, so that PCs are never actually stronger than NPCs in the world? Do you make all casting classes NPCs, and make the game mundane characters with NPC helpers only? Or do you make it so every player character is magical in one way or another?
Because obviously the old model doesn't work, not with any semblance of balance at least. I can't think of many people being happy with any of the alternatives I listed.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:06PM
#3
|
|
|
The first counterexample that springs to mind is Simon R. Green's Nightside series. John Taylor is the very high-magic protagonist, while 'Shotgun' Suzie is his emphatically non-magical (and extremely badass but still objectively much less powerful) action girl companion.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:08PM
#4
|
Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
|
Am I incorrect? Can anyone else come up with an example that involves a spellcaster and a non-spellcaster that are equally protagonized?
Tarma and Kethry, for one. Garion is one of three spellcasters in a party primarily composed of non-spellcasters.
Lina and Gourry are the main protagonists, though most of the supporting party has magic.
Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser? Never read the books, but springs to mind pretty quickly.
The metagame is not the game.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:20PM
#5
|
|
|
Am I incorrect? Can anyone else come up with an example that involves a spellcaster and a non-spellcaster that are equally protagonized?
You seem to be entirely correct. I cannot come up with an example that counters what you said.
I do feel that there is one other class of magic-martial interaction that you have missed (and I will elaborate). Although, it doesn't really change things much. The kind of interaction I'm talking about is seen in the TV Show Supernatural, where the bulk of magic is ritualized; everyone can use magic if they have the right symbols, words, and components, even if they never had magical training or didn't intend to use real magic. You can even skimp on the components a bit, as seen in this quote:
Sam: (about the supplies for a séance) "Dude, alright. I'll admit we've gone pretty ghetto with spellwork before, but this takes the cake. I mean, a SpongeBob placemat instead of an altar cloth?"
Dean: "Well, just put it SpongeBob side down."
Really, the only non-ritual magic in the show is the powers of witches who, in the Supernatural universe, get their powers from demons. Even they usually need rituals, and hex-bags, to do more than magically throw people around. In a way, this blurs the line between your points #2 and letter A.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:22PM
#6
|
|
|
What you say is true. But how do you handle that in a game? Do you make PC spellcasters adhere to stricter limitations than NPC spellcasters, so that PCs are never actually stronger than NPCs in the world? Do you make all casting classes NPCs, and make the game mundane characters with NPC helpers only? Or do you make it so every player character is magical in one way or another?
Personally, I've houseruled things to conform to one of those last two suggestions--all the PCs are spellcasters or none of them are.
My unpopular, lazy suggestion would be denoting all the casting classes as being NPC only.
The more difficult, and better path, though, is to figure out how a wizard like Zed works in the party and do that. I also think 1e and 2e were a lot better balanced on the caster/martial disparity thing, but so many things changed in 3rd, it's hard to pin point exactly what change is to blame.
The first counterexample that springs to mind is Simon R. Green's Nightside series. John Taylor is the very high-magic protagonist, while 'Shotgun' Suzie is his emphatically non-magical (and extremely badass but still objectively much less powerful) action girl companion.
I'll look into this, as I'm not familiar with it, but calling her his companion suggests to me she's not really a "PC" in the story, either, but rather a cohort or something.
Tarma and Kethry, for one. Garion is one of three spellcasters in a party primarily composed of non-spellcasters.
Lina and Gourry are the main protagonists, though most of the supporting party has magic.
Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser? Never read the books, but springs to mind pretty quickly.
I'll look into those first few, but I am fairly sure that neither Fafhrd nor Gray Mouser were spellcasters.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:25PM
#7
|
|
|
What you say is true. But how do you handle that in a game? Do you make PC spellcasters adhere to stricter limitations than NPC spellcasters, so that PCs are never actually stronger than NPCs in the world? Do you make all casting classes NPCs, and make the game mundane characters with NPC helpers only? Or do you make it so every player character is magical in one way or another?
Because obviously the old model doesn't work, not with any semblance of balance at least. I can't think of many people being happy with any of the alternatives I listed.
I believe the point is not that PC spellcasters have to obey tighter restrictions than NPC casters. Instead, I believe it's that NPCs are plot elements that can break the rules as needed by the DM. The PC casters may be able to do this too, but it should only be something that comes up when the DM says it does. PCs' regularly available abilities shouldn't be built with the assumption of the plot-busting power of NPCs who can break the rules for the sake of the plot.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:27PM
#8
|
Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
|
Many Jack Vance novels
Many of Andre Norton's Witchworld novels
Master of Five Magics (Lyndon Hardy)
Riddlemaster of Hed (Paticia McKillip)
Forgotten Beasts of Eld (another by McKillip)
Perhaps Orson Scott Card's Alvin the Maker series?
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:28PM
#9
|
|
|
There are some counter-examples. The majority of the different variations of the Eternal Champion for example are fairly magically adept, and are certainly protagonists in the vast majority of those stories. None of them are easily classifiable as equivalent to a D&D wizard, though at least in principle you could handle characters on the order of an Elric.
There are other hard to classify examples from myth. Caucasian heroes for instance, or Vainamoinen. Some of these fall into the hero-craftsman category, but they could be considered 'magically adept', though possibly at least as much 'fighter' as 'magic user'.
I think there's a decent grey area there. OTOH the essential point is cogent. Vance aside there's very little literary support for the D&D 'blaster wizard' that runs around instantly casting lethal spells and powerful instantaneous utility magic. Literary magic on the other hand really IS genuinely not often all that useful in an adventuring sense. You wouldn't be able to really play a Merlin, who's main shtick is foretelling future events, or one of the heroic craftsman types, etc. Others it is hard to say much about, as we are really never given much indication of what exactly they can do or how they do it.
D&D wizards aren't ENTIRELY outside of what is depicted in literature, but they are certainly largely a reinterpretation of the main sources in a way that suites them to be adventuring protagonists. There's just not much other way it could be. If the wizard can't whip up a spell to help win a fight or overcome an obstacle without elaborate preparation then they simply aren't going to be compatible adventuring companions for PC fighters and etc.
There are few alternatives. I'd think about the only other viable one would be something sort of like Ars Magica. Perhaps a bit different, something where the wizard is a player controlled resource but the PCs are your non-magical guys and the 'wizard' is more of a resource you go to offstage that helps out the main characters, etc. Something like that can probably be devised, but it would certainly be fairly different from any edition of D&D.
I'm simply not convinced there's a really good alternative that isn't some variation on what 4e has done, which is both make magic a bit less open-ended, relegate the most plot significant aspects of it to higher levels and/or rituals, and provide structure for the process of making non-casters into fantastic heroes at higher levels. It works. Of course D&D has become a cultural entity saddled with a rather large and amazingly hide-bound fan base. 5e seems to be struggling hard to keep the majority of the 4e solution in some form. I don't know if even that will manage to get past the "grognards" or not.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:30PM
#10
|
Date Joined:
Feb 15, 2008
|
Legend of Korra is currently doing a good job of keeping the mundanes and the magical characters on an equal footing. Asami is the only person without powers in the main character group, but with her electrical glove-thing is kicking tons of ass. Avatar the Last Airbender did a decent job as well. Sokka was never all that useful until maybe the very end of the show, but character like Suki, Mai, and Tai Li were pretty awesomely strong mundanes in that world. They did it by giving the mundanes distinctive styles of which they were masters, and letting them do cool stuff that in the real world is obviously not possible. This is similar to the approach 4e takes, actually, and works pretty well IMO.
"So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been."
- Manwë, High King of the Valar
|
|
|
