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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 2:47PM
#191
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Detecting evil only can be useful to find a list of suspects, no the true guilty.
It's been my expereince that detect evil basically becomes a "list of people who need to die."
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 4:08PM
#192
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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One of the uses for Alignment is to define the personality of a character.
to define it as a seperate personality from the personality of the player.
but foe this use alignment doesen't seem the best tool to me, the nature/demeaner system from vampire seems more intresting to me.
maybe have some modual that alouws you to randomize or inspire for character personality traits.
And that in some way rewards actualy sticking to these traits.
traits like character intrests/hobbies.
and personalities like shy/agrassive
maybe also a table to generate famely and siblings based on race.
With the 9 alignament you have cover the basic ethical and moral behavor, in the vampire anallogy it's like rebel/bizarre/judge. If you want, you can allow the option of have a nature (your true alignament) and a demeaner (the alignament you show in public).
Anyway, alignament is just a guide, there's no two LG equal.
Alignment: I wouldn't want to get rid of alignment. For archetyical villains and and archetypical heroes... the knowledge is essential. For more gray-area "realism", it is still an easily identifiable way of determining if the anti-hero is still pure enough to wield the holy avenger or has fallen so low that the demon's blasphemy no longer phases him. And for the poor beleaguered DM, a quick way to identify how an NPC may behave in a general sense.
It is a guideline. Human behavior is more complex than the system can warrant, but as background game information, alignment is a good tool.
Levels: I tried a campaign where the characters started at mid-level and there was no such thing as advancement. It was fun for a while, but wore thin as it became harder and harder to explain why the swordsman never got any better and the wizard never learned new spells.
Classes: I have actually been trying to figure out a home-brew mechanic for a classless DnD. I am trying to make it balanced by using a point system, which will also be used for hit points, stats, skills... EVERYTHING. D&D is a pretty complex system for such, but I think it could be done. It would require some role-playing effort (some players are all about the axe barbarian hit point cow, but the point system would at least balance that) and judgment on the part of the DM.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 6:46PM
#193
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2007
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wel one of the thing i did enjoy was the planescape factions, and the difrent outlok they had on the multiverse.
And it seemed t be a much bigger motivator for roleplaying then alignment is.
I felt the same way - though part of the reason the factions were interesting were due to the backdrop of the alignment based planes.
I'd like to see a loyalty system that can be plugged into the place alignment has. That loyalty could be to an element, a god, or a concept like Freedom or Stability.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 8:45PM
#194
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2012
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Alignment: I wouldn't want to get rid of alignment. For archetyical villains and and archetypical heroes... the knowledge is essential. For more gray-area "realism", it is still an easily identifiable way of determining if the anti-hero is still pure enough to wield the holy avenger or has fallen so low that the demon's blasphemy no longer phases him. And for the poor beleaguered DM, a quick way to identify how an NPC may behave in a general sense.
It is a guideline. Human behavior is more complex than the system can warrant, but as background game information, alignment is a good tool.
...thank you. While typing up those thoughts, I got bothered by how to reconcile the Smite abilities, the Blasphemies, and so forth - and that sums up what I couldn't vocalize. When you have undeniable forces of Good and Evil, Law and Chaos - the greatest hope, the darkest despair, the unity of purpose, the most mutable madness - then one can tend toward some extreme, cross some threshold. Enough virtue makes you Good enough that holy swords accept you; enough lapses into sin make the darkest blasphemies meaningless.
As for the less supernaturally evil creatures - to use the Standard Orc as an example again - they care for blood and glory, only for themselves, and offensive blasphemies are Not Their Problem.
Okay. I can fit this in my mind.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 9:00PM
#195
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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"Why do you hurt your fellow citizens?"
The innkeeper froze. "What?"
"I can see the greed swirling in your soul," Handor said. "Do you water down your ale? Charge three crowns when the price is two? Or worse?"
"I don't know what you're talking about," the man stammered. His eyes flickered down to Handor's blade.
"I am a paladin of the Silver Flame. I am sworn to fight evil in all its forms. My sword is for the fiends and monsters that deserve neither reason nor mercy. But you are no monster, and you can still find redemption." Handor put his hand on the hosteller's shoulder. "Consider your actions. Think about those you have harmed. Seek out a minister and cleanse your soul. The true darkness is rising, and if we are to survive we must all find a path to the light. If you cannot . . . then perhaps you are a monster, after all."
That actually made me think of this
Now you will receive us We do not ask for your poor or your hungry We do not want your tired and sick It is your corrupt we claim It is your evil that will be sought by us With every breath we shall hunt them down Each day we will spill there blood till it rains down from the skies Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal. These are principle that every man of every faith can embrace These are not polite suggestions. These are codes of behavior And those of you are to guard them with penalties cost There are varying degrees of evil, we urge you less the forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over Into true corruption, into our domain For if you do one day you will look behind you and see we three And on that day you will rip it And we will send you to which ever God you wish
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 10, 2012 - 11:08AM
#196
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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Wait.
Who actually likes alignment?
I'd never want to pull something from the game someone likes, but it doesn't sound like something anyone actually wants.
I'm with Brimleydower on this one, using alignment as an aid to adventure planning or in some cases a reason why the party is working together... way to broadly indicate whether the DM will be dealing with a malicious scofflaw, an honorable and upright citizen, a rebel without a cause, helpful do-gooder or self-interested ne'er-do-well.
Some old book said something to the effect of: "Alignment is not a straight-jacket, but a tool..."
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 10, 2012 - 11:11AM
#197
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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"Why do you hurt your fellow citizens?"
The innkeeper froze. "What?"
"I can see the greed swirling in your soul," Handor said. "Do you water down your ale? Charge three crowns when the price is two? Or worse?"
"I don't know what you're talking about," the man stammered. His eyes flickered down to Handor's blade.
"I am a paladin of the Silver Flame. I am sworn to fight evil in all its forms. My sword is for the fiends and monsters that deserve neither reason nor mercy. But you are no monster, and you can still find redemption." Handor put his hand on the hosteller's shoulder. "Consider your actions. Think about those you have harmed. Seek out a minister and cleanse your soul. The true darkness is rising, and if we are to survive we must all find a path to the light. If you cannot . . . then perhaps you are a monster, after all."
That actually made me think of this
Now you will receive us We do not ask for your poor or your hungry We do not want your tired and sick It is your corrupt we claim It is your evil that will be sought by us With every breath we shall hunt them down Each day we will spill there blood till it rains down from the skies Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal. These are principle that every man of every faith can embrace These are not polite suggestions. These are codes of behavior And those of you are to guard them with penalties cost There are varying degrees of evil, we urge you less the forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over Into true corruption, into our domain For if you do one day you will look behind you and see we three And on that day you will rip it And we will send you to which ever God you wish
That's a hard-liner paladin right there!
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 10, 2012 - 11:17AM
#198
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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No, that one's in my purse, Melwick.
Or...was that the Eye of Vecna. Wait, didn't I loan you the Eye of Vecna, Shas? Or was that Gruumsh?
*holds up an eye*
Naah, you gave me the Head of Vecna so if Shirebrok gets tired of the spiders he may want to shoot it my way.
Of course, I realize this has to do with me and my friends whenever we play. We dropped the whole thing when we couldn't figure out the alignment for our characters in this one specific campaign (Party consists of Cleric, Bard, Fighter and Rogue. Cleric creates undead from the bodies of our defeated foes, which we then use to defend the land and uphold its laws. The Bard has a follower/companion that does practically the same thing. If anybody can answer that, I'd be grateful.)
Undead in DnD have always been a source of conflicting viewpoints, that basically boil down to "What does the DM say". Some say that a Skeleton is a mindless automaton that is no more or less evil then any other tool, but others say that using negative energy to create the undead embues them with "Evil" that if given the chance will hunt and kill you.
Shasarak, I can agree with what you said about the ambiguity being a strength. I know alignment is meant to be a set of guidelines for certain codes of conduct. And in that sense, it is better not to think too much about it (like AC and HP). But I think that is a double-edged sword. It is also that ambiguity that starts arguments and conflicts. It seems to me that you need a group full of people who perfectly agree on touchy subjects and view mostly everything from the same point-of-view. It must be awesome if you have a group like that, but I've never had that chance. All things considered, I think the cons outweigh the pros. Again, this is my experience and opinion.
It is not that we agree and walk in lock step, but more the fact that we talk about what goes on in the game and, most importantly, do not favour a "Gotch'a" approach to play. No false trolley or prisoner scenarios - just dont see the point in that.
Defiling a corpse is a pretty low thing to do, isn't it. Hey, my best bud's dead, but with a few words and incantations he'll be just as useful, heck... maybe even more useful!
I'd say the cleric is lawful evil. The bards are neutral evil, most likely.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 10, 2012 - 11:20AM
#199
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2012
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No, that one's in my purse, Melwick.
Or...was that the Eye of Vecna. Wait, didn't I loan you the Eye of Vecna, Shas? Or was that Gruumsh?
*holds up an eye*
Naah, you gave me the Head of Vecna so if Shirebrok gets tired of the spiders he may want to shoot it my way.
Of course, I realize this has to do with me and my friends whenever we play. We dropped the whole thing when we couldn't figure out the alignment for our characters in this one specific campaign (Party consists of Cleric, Bard, Fighter and Rogue. Cleric creates undead from the bodies of our defeated foes, which we then use to defend the land and uphold its laws. The Bard has a follower/companion that does practically the same thing. If anybody can answer that, I'd be grateful.)
Undead in DnD have always been a source of conflicting viewpoints, that basically boil down to "What does the DM say". Some say that a Skeleton is a mindless automaton that is no more or less evil then any other tool, but others say that using negative energy to create the undead embues them with "Evil" that if given the chance will hunt and kill you.
Shasarak, I can agree with what you said about the ambiguity being a strength. I know alignment is meant to be a set of guidelines for certain codes of conduct. And in that sense, it is better not to think too much about it (like AC and HP). But I think that is a double-edged sword. It is also that ambiguity that starts arguments and conflicts. It seems to me that you need a group full of people who perfectly agree on touchy subjects and view mostly everything from the same point-of-view. It must be awesome if you have a group like that, but I've never had that chance. All things considered, I think the cons outweigh the pros. Again, this is my experience and opinion.
It is not that we agree and walk in lock step, but more the fact that we talk about what goes on in the game and, most importantly, do not favour a "Gotch'a" approach to play. No false trolley or prisoner scenarios - just dont see the point in that.
Defiling a corpse is a pretty low thing to do, isn't it. Hey, my best bud's dead, but with a few words and incantations he'll be just as useful, heck... maybe even more useful!
I'd say the cleric is lawful evil. The bards are neutral evil, most likely.
Whose EYE is it, anyway?
What do you call a deer without eyes? - I have no-eye deer.
What do you call the same deer with no legs? - Still no eye deer.
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells?
DM: Awesome. Yes.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 10, 2012 - 11:23AM
#200
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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Some old book said something to the effect of: "Alignment is not a straight-jacket, but a tool..."
...and then that same book explicitly leveraged alignment exactly as straitjacket in the next chapter, for Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin, etc.
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