I agree. Humans are genuinely mysterious. Science hasnt even come close to demonstrating what consciousness is, or how it works. LOL! Science is still unsure if “thermostats” are conscious or not. No improvement from what prehistoric animism is working with!
There is a TED talk which examines conciousness you might want to take a gander at.... at minimum the fellow was taking a shot at defining it.
Humans have gender-divided to some degree for millions of years, as masculine hunters and feminine gatherers, with notable crossovers, such as females who joined the hunter group, whence the valkyrie archetype, and so on.
Men fighting bravely is vital to Norse culture, long before Christianity arrived. Just look at the spiritual tradition of Valhalla.
Odinn knows Seid magic *because* he is ambivalent. The personification of the skydome encompasses both day and night, both order and chaos. The sky is the family head of order (storm Thorr and daylight Baldr) but also of chaos (firelight Loki thus other destroyers Hel, Fenrir, and Jormungandr). Where the storm as Thorr attacks the wilderness and safeguards the humans, the sky as Odinn encompasses and safeguards the cosmic whole. Odinn also personifies an aspect of death. For the ancients, this unity of opposites is part of the experience of the transcendence.
It seems, men could be called a warlock, but women could not. To me this suggests pre-Christian values of gender division. Thus likely suggests the value of courage in battle, with Seid already understood by the culture as its antithesis. Note, Norse women can and do make oaths. The Norse held anyone breaking an oath despicable. (Even oaths under duress were binding, unlike for our modern sensibilities.) There is some oath that warlock men are making, but that women are not, and that again refers to gender division.
(Heh, newsflash, modern values would find most premodern cultures distasteful, and it is irrational and juvenile to blame Christianity for all things cultural.)
Look, I'm sorry if I'm being an argument tease here, but I'm not getting into an involved debate about those topics. It's just not happening. There are points where we disagree and others where we agree and exploring either could get the thread locked. Not happening. I will note real quick, though, that it is not speculation that Christian influences changed things about pre-christian mythology, or that certain aspects of Norse mythology have to be questioned in that light. Those are facts.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
The only one that truly stands out as truly different is Psionics.
Only the nomenclature of “psionic” stands out. The power of the mind is ancient. As said, Norse magic is strictly a use of mindforce.
What?
No, it's not.
The Runes are believed to have a mystical power of their own. Galdr, Bindrunes and drawn charms are magics of language, and thus involve formulas and rules.
I agree. Humans are genuinely mysterious. Science hasnt even come close to demonstrating what consciousness is, or how it works. LOL! Science is still unsure if “thermostats” are conscious or not. No improvement from what prehistoric animism is working with!
Seriously?
You're joking right?
Our understanding of ourselves has grown exponentially in just the last 50 years.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I will note real quick, though, that it is not speculation that Christian influences changed things about pre-christian mythology, or that certain aspects of Norse mythology have to be questioned in that light. Those are facts.
Those arent facts. Those are academic speculations. I agree more with the camp that says the similarities between the Eddas and Christianity have more to do with the fact Zoroastrianism significantly influenced both of them. For example the Voluspa Poem in the Elder Eddas, possibly but not necessarily a Christian “spun” the traditions to emphasize a Christian typology, but the it would be ineffective unless the traditions themselves were authentically Norse. Every point can be shown to pre-exist Christianity. Baldr personifies daylight, thus “dies” during the shortest daylight of the year, the winter solstice. Obviously the Jul tradition that reinacts this mythos predates Christianity. Norse culture sustained pre-Christian traditions for centuries, even after the official conversion. To this day, Scandinavians are proud of - and knowledgeable about - this heritage.
By the way, on topic. Notice in the Voluspa, Odin uses Seid magic to manipulate the *mind* of the ghost of the dead Volva (prophet) to compel her prophesy about the future. This aggressive Seid magic is why the Volva is happy to predict his doom.
The only one that truly stands out as truly different is Psionics.
Only the nomenclature of “psionic” stands out. The power of the mind is ancient. As said, Norse magic is strictly a use of mindforce.
What?
No, it's not.
The Runes are believed to have a mystical power of their own.
Your claim is incorrect.
Rather,
Runes have no magic power in themselves. They are just an ordinary alphabet. The word galdr means chant. It is the poem that transmits the power of the mindforce. Not the alphabet letter. Even the word “runes” runar can mean different things, including a song or a stanza of a poem, again referring to the chant, not the alphabet letter. It is the poems that people say or write that are magic. It is the intention of the mindforce hugr that matters. Please consult serious academic studies on the topic of runes. Especially Scandinavian academics who know what they are talking about.
When you watch an episode of Charmed, and the three witch sisters sit around making up a new spell, by inventing a suitable poem for it - they are doing it right, according to the tradition of Norse magic. When they write their poem down - the English alphabet that they use isnt especially magic, nor is the paper, nor is the pen. The point of the poem is to “express” the mindforce in an intentional, focused, and compelling way. It is the magic of an artist. It is a freeform style of magic, and depends entirely on the individuals doing it.
That said, the sisters also have a spellbook that their mother wrote, if I recall correctly, more like an ad-hoc scrap book, that the sisters add to. Now, at this point, this family album gets invested with the mindforces of the family members, by means of the mental, emotional and intellectual engagement. It becomes part of the life of the sisters, and in this sense gets psionically charged. The book extends and transmits the mindforces of the mother and her daughters.
I will note real quick, though, that it is not speculation that Christian influences changed things about pre-christian mythology, or that certain aspects of Norse mythology have to be questioned in that light. Those are facts.
Those arent facts. Those are academic speculations. I agree more with the camp that says the similarities between the Eddas and Christianity have more to do with the fact Zoroastrianism significantly influenced both of them. For example the Voluspa Poem in the Elder Eddas, possibly but not necessarily a Christian “spun” the traditions to emphasize a Christian typology, but the it would be ineffective unless the traditions themselves were authentically Norse. Every point can be shown to pre-exist Christianity. Baldr personifies daylight, thus “dies” during the shortest daylight of the year, the winter solstice. Obviously the Jul tradition that reinacts this mythos predates Christianity. Norse culture sustained pre-Christian traditions for centuries, even after the official conversion. To this day, Scandinavians are proud of - and knowledgeable about - this heritage.
By the way, on topic. Notice in the Voluspa, Odin uses Seid magic to manipulate the *mind* of the ghost of the dead Volva (prophet) to compel her prophesy about the future. This aggressive Seid magic is why the Volva is happy to predict his doom.
Have you read, at all, about the Younger Edda and points where it is obviously and deliberately put into a form in places to make it more Christian?
No, it's not speculation. We can argue about what degree to which it happened, but the fact that it happened is inarguable fact.
Now, I'm not sure what your point about the Voluspa is, other than to point out that Seidthr can be used as a weapon, perhaps? Was that just an interesting point you thought of, or was it supposed to refute or otherwise respond to something I said?
The only one that truly stands out as truly different is Psionics.
Only the nomenclature of “psionic” stands out. The power of the mind is ancient. As said, Norse magic is strictly a use of mindforce.
What?
No, it's not.
The Runes are believed to have a mystical power of their own.
Your claim is incorrect.
Rather,
Runes have no magic power in themselves. They are just an ordinary alphabet. The word galdr means chant. It is the poem that transmits the power of the mindforce. Not the alphabet letter. Even the word “runes” runar can mean different things, including a song or a stanza of a poem, again referring to the chant, not the alphabet letter. It is the poems that people say or write that are magic. It is the intention of the mindforce hugr that matters. Please consult serious academic studies on the topic of runes. Especially Scandinavian academics who know what they are talking about.
When you watch an episode of Charmed, and the three witch sisters sit around making up a new spell, by inventing a suitable poem for it - they are doing it right, according to the tradition of Norse magic. When they write their poem down - the English alphabet that they use isnt especially magic, nor is the paper, nor is the pen. The point of the poem is to “express” the mindforce in an intentional, focused, and compelling way. It is the magic of an artist. It is a freeform style of magic, and depends entirely on the individuals doing it.
That said, the sisters also have a spellbook that their mother wrote, if I recall correctly, more like an ad-hoc scrap book, that the sisters add to. Now, at this point, this family album gets invested with the mindforces of the family members, by means of the mental, emotional and intellectual engagement. It becomes part of the life of the sisters, and in this sense gets psionically charged. The book extends and transmits the mindforces of the mother and her daughters.
Wow. And you call what I've had to say speculation. Fascinating.
Please source your claim that the runes are not believed by their users to have magical power of their own in something other than modern pop culture fiction.
Galdr is a method of chanting runes, either simply chanting runes or the verbal equivilent of bindrunes, or rune poems for magical purpose, and possible as a meditative technique. It has been suggested that it could also have been used as part of shamanistic practices, particularly as part of gaining greater knowledge of the Futhark, but that is mostly speculative, like most of our modern thoughts on rune use. The most salient fact when discussing runes and Norse magic in general is that we know very little about it for sure.
Poems have rules. Music has rules. Rune poems are not freeform. There is a structure and form that must be followed.
Your idea that runes have no power on their own is, so far as I can tell, unsupported by any historical artifact or writing which deals with the topic.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
My opinion is of course limited by the fact that I haven't read everything on the subject, but I didn't found an example of a person gaining knowledge or reality altering effects through runes without being having an intrinsic supernatural quality as a user of seid, galdr or else. In everything I read, runes affect the world when an "initiate" creates or uses them, like a focus or a 4th edition implement.
And there are examples of these supernatural users obtaining effects without using runes. These makes me think that runes are more supernatural tools than supernatural final products.
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - thecasualoblivion "Vancian isn't broken, you just have to set your game to the wizard's clock!" - Oxybe "In many ways, making a new edition of D&D is alot like trying to sell a car to the Amish." - Dwarfslayer "Encounters are the heart of the AD&D game" - PHB AD&D 2nd edition. "you shouldn't even bother trying to become like me." - Gary Gygax (Elfcrusher confirmed)
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