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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 2:59PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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If I have some evil baddie whispering in the king's ear creating all kinds of havoc he's smart enough to be wearing a Conceal Alignment ring (or something similar). In a world where everyone knows that Paladins can detect evil at will and Clerics can cast Know Alignment, the smart ones are going to be concealing themselves. However, you run into the problem of...
Player: "My cleric casts Know Alignment on the king's adviser."
DM: "The adviser gives off no alignment."
Player: "Oh man, he must be evil if he's trying to conceal his alignment. I smite him!"
That problem is fixed once you allow "unaligned" as an option.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 3:19PM
#22
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What I always did was make clear that "evil" is not a proof of guilt. There were a lot of people who were evil, and they were probably colossal ****es, but that didn't mean that they've actually commited some evil act.
Like that merchant. Yeah, he's evil. Probably pours water in the wine. But he hasn't actually hurt anyone, because he's a crappy little level 0 peseant, who can't win an opposed strength check to squish a fly.
Or the village blacksmith. Yeah, he's evil too. Would kill a person without a second thought if he could gain from it. But he never did, because he never needed to do that, because he lives a normal, usual life.
Or the crown prince. Yeah, he's evil. Yeah, he orders deaths of dozens of prisoners for his own amusement. Yes, everyone fears him. But did he really order the assassination of the king's advisor? Well, you better prove it, because being evil is not a proof.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 3:33PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jul 19, 2012
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Alignment should be a roleplaying aid. Why there is a game mechanic around it is beyond me. If it is going to be such an intergral part of the game, then at low levels, it should detect the intentions of individuals at that very moment such as, by detecting evil on a person about to beat someone and steal their money would give you a bad vibe that something bad is going to happen and the perp-to-be is the source. Whereas the detect evil in its current state should be high level as you are looking into the psyche of the target and seeing a culmination of their actions so far and the probabilities of actions and intents to come.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 3:51PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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I've read quiiiiiite a few 2E books DMGorgon, but I don't think I've stumbled into that description before. May I ask where you got that from? That looks like a good read.
The Complete Paladin's Handbook.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 4:06PM
#25
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I've read quiiiiiite a few 2E books DMGorgon, but I don't think I've stumbled into that description before. May I ask where you got that from? That looks like a good read.
The Complete Paladin's Handbook.
...I must admit, I didn't even know one existed. Thank you very much! Time to hunt down a copy on amazon. 
As an aside to the 'alignment' thing. One thing Pathfinder did was rule that only people with extreme profound personal power (read: 6th level and above) and those devoted to a belief (all clerics) even -had- an alignment aura. Most people would read as having no alignment at all, thus making the tool still usable somewhat, still open to deception via magic, and usable on those who are actual enemies of consequence. I found it to be pretty good, and well within the realm of world-character association.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 4:07PM
#26
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Swede1985 is right. It makes no sense to go 'here's an incredibly broken ability ... and now we'll give the DM tools he must use to keep it from breaking his game, thus neutering the ability and making it pointless'. There's no reason for the ability to even exist at that point. 'Here's an ability, but you'll never get to use it' is bad design.
Alignment needs to die, once and for all, and take Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos, Know Alignment, and all related effects with it into oblivion.
That's like saying magic users need to die because of just one broken ability that uses magic. Or giving fighters the ability to kill anything in one blow (no save, auto-hit) and then saying melee combat needs to die because of it.
There are proper and good ways for alignment to be implemented and used.
Actually, I don't believe Salla was connecting the two as much as you think. Detection and alignment are often very closely linked topics. Salla and I share the opinion (Salla, please correct me if I'm wrong) that alignment is just a vague character description (and one that can be better achieved through other means), and that giving it mechanical weight is what really needs to die.
Salla is very correct that the devs should be very cautious about giving out abilities that can wreck stories and climactic encounters instead of saying "here's awesome but incredibly broken thing X, and now we give DMs countermeasure Y to throw in the player's face at every alternative until the player is so frustrated they stop using the ability."
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 4:08PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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I've read quiiiiiite a few 2E books DMGorgon, but I don't think I've stumbled into that description before. May I ask where you got that from? That looks like a good read.
The Complete Paladin's Handbook.
...I must admit, I didn't even know one existed. Thank you very much! Time to hunt down a copy on amazon.
Part of the burgundy softcover series, they're great.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 4:09PM
#28
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I've read quiiiiiite a few 2E books DMGorgon, but I don't think I've stumbled into that description before. May I ask where you got that from? That looks like a good read.
The Complete Paladin's Handbook.
...I must admit, I didn't even know one existed. Thank you very much! Time to hunt down a copy on amazon.
IIRC, AD&D 2e released a Complete class book for each class as well as racial books (I specifically recall owning the one race book that covered gnomes and halflings).
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 4:11PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Why there is a game mechanic around it is beyond me.
The existance of objective and active "forces" for good and evil is a widespread fantasy trope, it provides all sorts of interesting hooks to hang an adventure on, and I've always found it fun to play with. I would not want to force my prefrences on anyone else so I think this kind of thing should be in a module, but I would be sad if it were discarded entirely.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 4:12PM
#30
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...I must admit, I didn't even know one existed. Thank you very much! Time to hunt down a copy on amazon.
IIRC, AD&D 2e released a Complete class book for each class as well as racial books (I specifically recall owning the one race book that covered gnomes and halflings).
Part of the burgundy softcover series, they're great.
Yah, I have the 'main 4' + psion...just didn't know they'd ever made any for the subclasses. And I know they made one for elves...so I'm assuming they made one for halflings? I had always wondered but never got around to looking for it. Gah, my money, it goes so fast. Speaking of which...my replacement copy of FRA should be here by now. I'mma hafta call these folks up and see where mah book is! 
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