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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 7:41AM
#101
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What I'm hearing is "I don't see this as a problem, so WotC don't solve it for people who do think its a problem"
Screw that
...whatever
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 7:44AM
#102
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What I'm hearing is "I don't see this as a problem, so WotC don't solve it for people who do think its a problem" Screw that
That's because the solution is far more simple and foolproof than any rule they will make. I guarantee you that if they create a rule for this, my players will find the loophole in the rule within hours of the rule being published. The only thing stoping them from exploiting the new rule will be their willpower not to ruin the game for themselves. If your players can't be trusted to stop on their own, as soon as they learn how to exploit the new rule you will be back in the very same position of complaining about the 5-minute work day. I don't understand why you can't grasp this.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 7:45AM
#103
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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So the solution to solving this metagaming issue is to empower and educate the DM.
Keep up the good work!
The solution to player metagaming is DM metagmaaming.
Keep up the what the hell are we paying you guys for!
The DM can't metagame, at least not in the same way as players do. The DM MUST metagame and has had to since 1e. It's part of his job. If the DM places an item into the game for a PC's use....that's metagaming. When the DM makes an encounter that will be fun for the players.....metagaming. If he takes ANYTHING he knows about any PC into consideration when making an encounter of any type...metagaming. If he places encounters to the level of the party....more metagaming! The DM IS metagame.
I totally agree.
Any solution falls under DM empowerment which is really what 5e is trying to accomplish. There are probably dozens of house rules that can fix this issue and each group will desire a different solution. You can't force a single set of anti-5MWD rules on everyone.
In addition, the campaign setting might drastically change how these rules operate. I could for example see very different house rule for a Ravenloft campaign than a Greyhawk dungeon crawl. Therefore, the designers can't make any assumptions on what constitutes a typical day of adventuring. They can only design player resources around the most common adventuring day, with dungeon crawling being the primary measure.
Personally, I wouldn't want to play in a campaign that contains X number of encounters before each rest. That would be too predictable and it would limit player freedom.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 7:47AM
#104
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The Problem with Per-Day Classes
Because the per-day classes willingly choose to spend all their resources at once to go nova,
Because the atwill classes dont willingly choose to lose all their hit points at once,
The per-day classes will always use up their resources sooner, will always be more powerful, and will always force the atwill classes to end the day too soon.
Build in severe penalties for resting early. First day you rest early, you only get half of your daily powers. The second day in a row you rest early, you only get a quarter of your daily powers. Third day in a row, an eighth of your daily powers.
Edit: As a module of course.
Honestly, that heavy-handed anti-narrative “solution” would be offensive and end my interest in the game.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 7:50AM
#105
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2005
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Maybe I missed it, but do people just ignore the fact you can only take one long rest in a 24 hour period? It's even right in the playtest.
If your party rests at midnight to 8am, they can not rest again until midnight, at least not to regain spells. So at 8:05am after an encounter they decide to rest, they are sitting around for 16 hours inside of a dungeon without gaining anything. Something will find them in that amount of time.
The five minute work day is already fixed, and it's one long rest in 24 hours. If both players and DM's understand that then there is no issue.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 7:54AM
#106
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Maybe I missed it, but do people just ignore the fact you can only take one long rest in a 24 hour period? It's even right in the playtest.
If your party rests at midnight to 8am, they can not rest again until midnight, at least not to regain spells. So at 8:05am after an encounter they decide to rest, they are sitting around for 16 hours inside of a dungeon without gaining anything. Something will find them in that amount of time.
The five minute work day is already fixed, and it's one long rest in 24 hours. If both players and DM's understand that then there is no issue.
See my post above.
Players who misunderstand the spirit of the rules, or simply don't care will still exploit this. That is why a rules based solution is ultimately going to be unsatisfactory. Players and DM need to have an implied social contract where the players simply don't engage in this type of behavior. It is a choice they must make, and stick to. Nothing more.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 7:57AM
#107
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2007
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... The rest, whether 8 hours or 1 hour, happens off camera within the narrative. Regarding the game system, the mechanic remains identical - both rests are truly vancian with a need for spellslot resource management across several encounters.
Hmm ... not in our group. We plan where to camp, who takes which watches (and the casters get first or last watches to have unbroken sleep), and other on-camera stuff. If something wanders by in the middle of the night, the guys on watch do try not to wake the casters, but it doesn't always work out that way.
After reading this thread, I'm sure of one thing for us -- we would prefer solutions that do not require breaking the immersion in the game world. How would the characters (not the players) view tokens to be spent on HPs or more spells? If we can't come up with something that relates to character actions, we wouldn't use it.And yes, we're one of the groups that never had a 5MWD issue, and it really seems to me to be a play group culture thing. Sure, we have optimisers and min-maxers, but they also recognise that no one "wins" a D&D game. They can win the scenario, lose a battle, and accidentally blow up a tower, but the winners are the players who leave the session with a "Wow, that was fun!" feeling.We have one Vancian mage and one spell-point mage in the same group. How they choose to use their resources is different, but the end result doesn't seem to be that much different. Magic happens when it needs to, and I don't recall ever seeing a "nova" that wasn't a "we have to win this or the town dies with us" situation.We don't plan games around encounters or adventures. We tell a story, and things happen when they happen. Sometimes the group makes choices that means they never come across the goblins lurking in the forest. Sometimes they do something so asinine that the DM needs to quickly come up with some monsters he hadn't planned for, but is totally logical for the situation. Planning game sessions around encounters or X combats per day feels to us like railroading. The PCs (and players) do what they do, and the DM applies the necessary adjudication.Mearls has some good things to say, but in the end, I'll see as playtest goes on just how well 5e will work for OUR group. Only the game itself as presented will tell us that.
In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.5e should strongly stay away from "I don't like it, so you can't have it either."
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 8:06AM
#108
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... The rest, whether 8 hours or 1 hour, happens off camera within the narrative. Regarding the game system, the mechanic remains identical - both rests are truly vancian with a need for spellslot resource management across several encounters.
Hmm ... not in our group. We plan where to camp, who takes which watches (and the casters get first or last watches to have unbroken sleep), and other on-camera stuff. If something wanders by in the middle of the night, the guys on watch do try not to wake the casters, but it doesn't always work out that way.
Heh, it seems, while I am an adventurer, I spend an awful lot of time trapped inside self-contained dungeon crawls. Not in the towns. Not in the open wilds. Too often I never have the luxury of a camp out that makes sense, for 8 hours while orcs are roaming around in rooms only meters away.
After reading this thread, I'm sure of one thing for us -- we would prefer solutions that do not require breaking the immersion in the game world. How would the characters (not the players) view tokens to be spent on HPs or more spells? If we can't come up with something that relates to character actions, we wouldn't use it.
I agree. Game immersion is probably my highest priority. Which is why I prefer spontaneous mechanics that can represent in-game efforts. Afterward, game balance. Then character customization. A distant afterward, comes other concerns.
The two-token mechanic is still a new idea, but it seems a fruitful line of inquiry.
Hypothetically, the narrative can understand the tokens as confidence and focus. Hence high-performance and competence. The samething applies to athletes, so it seems the atwill classes should be able to benefit from tokens too to do interesting things. When the tokens exhaust, their mojo runs out, and things get difficult.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 8:10AM
#109
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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We have one Vancian mage and one spell-point mage in the same group. How they choose to use their resources is different, but the end result doesn't seem to be that much different. Magic happens when it needs to, and I don't recall ever seeing a "nova" that wasn't a "we have to win this or the town dies with us" situation.
I think that with Vancian and pre-4e systems the metagaming issue of the 5MWD is far less likely. The reason is you didn't get just 1 fireball spell per day, you could have several. I think the concept of a single daily power is what caused all the problems.
Even when I played a fighter in 4e and expended my daily power I felt weaker for the remainder of the adventuring day. From a metagaming perspective, it's an odd feeling to have when playing a fighter and because of that you really can't wait to rest again to regain that power.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 8:10AM
#110
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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The thing that baffles me the lack of optional rules suggested in the article. This is superseded to me a modular edition with optional rules. Can a brother get a hint.
Can we get a "We are giving DMs and groups tools to combat the five minute workday problem such as:
Themes that restore daily resources
Milestones that restore daily resources
Suggestions for limiting resting when unnecessary
Suggestions for what monsters and foes do when there is evidence of hostile adventurers
Alternate XP budgets for single encounter or 7+ encounter days."
No hints on modular options is saddening. They don't have to be working on them now nor do they have to make to release. But throw us a bone.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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