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Jul 14, 2012 -- 3:35PM, anjelika wrote:

Alright, enough.  I'm done trying to make a point to the deaf.  Let's give you -everything- you've asked for.  10,000 foot jumps, +9,000 to social rolls, reroute rivers with a stomp at level 1, a codified manuever for EVERYTHING and NO improvisation WHATSOEVER (unless it's in your favor, in which case it's perfectly acceptable).  Cut boulders in half with your tongue merely by thinking about it, whatever.  Knock yourselves out.

You're still behind a 3.5 wizard.  Now what.

Nerf the wizard obviously. Fortunately it's what the devs seem to be doing (but for understandable reason can't be expected to be vocal about). I never had Combat Prowress Envy toward the wizard. In my case it was always Plot Coupon Envy. Those suckers just had too much utility to wave off any normal obstacles with fly, dominate, invisibility and similar, making it hard for DM to engineer challenges around nullifying magic first so they are actually challenges and other characters' skills matter.
As I said it seems they are stealth-nerfing wizards in that respect as there are not many utility spells in the playtest pack (alarm, light, maybe grease, charm... anything else?) and the strongest of them (charm) has an effect I would expect a high charisma (+some skill) character could easily match.
So I'm a happy fellow. (If it keeps up).

Jul 14, 2012 -- 3:53PM, rampant wrote:

We're not asking to.

We want enough combat ability to force the wizards to stop playing rocket tag. Enough social prowess that charm and dominate aren't the end all be all of role-play encounters, and the ability at higher levels to cause the same kinds of massive world altering events wizards could cause but over look because they're so uber it doesn't really matter if they spend the extra time reshaping the land around their fortress-tower to give them the best strategic view of the area. It's a heroic fantasy game, shooting a hole in the moon or gouging a canyon out out of the earth with a mighty swing of your axe should be rare, but not completely out of the question anymore than the wizard creating a demi-plane.

Lol.  Now we're adding 'shoot a hole through the moon' to the list.  Sure, why not.  Why not add 'pull the sun from orbit' on there while we're at it?

Thank you.  In one post, you managed to take me from highly annoyed to completely amused.  That's not easy to do!

One question, though.  What do you do when your enemy does the same thing and slams the sun down on you?  Is that also a 3d8+3 improvisation?

Jul 14, 2012 -- 3:53PM, rampant wrote:

We're not asking to.

We want enough combat ability to force the wizards to stop playing rocket tag. Enough social prowess that charm and dominate aren't the end all be all of role-play encounters, and the ability at higher levels to cause the same kinds of massive world altering events wizards could cause but over look because they're so uber it doesn't really matter if they spend the extra time reshaping the land around their fortress-tower to give them the best strategic view of the area. It's a heroic fantasy game, shooting a hole in the moon or gouging a canyon out out of the earth with a mighty swing of your axe should be rare, but not completely out of the question anymore than the wizard creating a demi-plane.

Yannow, this post is -so- good I had to revisit it a second time.  It's that first line that says it -all-.  "We want to beat wizards by not being wizards...just doing what wizards do.  But not like wizards do it."  That's really telling. 

Jul 13, 2012 -- 5:29PM, EnglishLanguage wrote:

I'm also curious why you're so opposed to my diea despite it giving everyone what they want. A Simple Fighter for people who don't want complicated options anywhere near their character sheet, and a Warblade Fighter that gives more complicated options for everyone else.

Well for what it is worth, I agree with you English.  Almost never but this time I do.

Jul 14, 2012 -- 3:35PM, anjelika wrote:

Alright, enough.  I'm done trying to make a point to the deaf.  Let's give you -everything- you've asked for.  10,000 foot jumps, +9,000 to social rolls, reroute rivers with a stomp at level 1, a codified manuever for EVERYTHING and NO improvisation WHATSOEVER (unless it's in your favor, in which case it's perfectly acceptable).  Cut boulders in half with your tongue merely by thinking about it, whatever.  Knock yourselves out.

You're still behind a 3.5 wizard.  Now what.

Look at what I asked for in this thread.  Seriously, I have even given links to the 3.5 Warblade and their maneuvers.  I didn't for ask anything resembling what you are saying "we are asking for.  Now look at the 4e fighter.  Nobody asks for additional things for the 4e fighter even though it cannot do the things you say we must have.  Additionally many of us have stated we are fine with improvisng (I did it all the time with my 4e fighter), we just want codified abilities too (just like the caster classes have interesting options they can choose from every round).  All we want is to have interesting options to make in and out of combat.

Now the reason nodody asks for crazy things in 4e for their fighters is because the wizard has been dropped down to a more acceptable level (they can still perform feats of magic that make the fighter look like a chump) but the difference between the fighter's caabilities and the wizards is far less than it was in 3e.  Your hyperbole grossly mischaracterizes those who want options for their fighters.  Now if the wizard comes anything close to the power they had in 2e or 3e then yes I want the option to build a fighter that can stay relevant.  

If the wizard becomes a super hero by level 9 (All day long flight, immunity to weapons, super strength, invisibility, etc) then I want a fighter who can play in the same ballpark.  Now I don't need a fighter who can fly or shoot lazer beams, but if the wizard can fly all day long or summon a gargantuan death ape strong enough to do bicep curls with bull elephant, I would like to have the option to build a fighter who can jump 50 feet or lift the occasional 5 ton boulder.