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Switch to Forum Live View What kind of resource should HP be?
11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 11:00AM #1
Lawolf
Date Joined: May 4, 2008
Posts: 4,204
HP represent an interesting resource management challenge. There are two main groups of  thought regarding HP. One thinks that HP should be a "daily" resource that is drained over the course of many fights. The other thinks HP should be an "encounter" resource that start at or near full for every fight.

If HP are supposed to be a resource that is slowly depleted over the course of a day no single fight can be threatening. In this set up no player can be expected to take more than 25% of their max HP in a given fight or the group will never make it past 4 fights per day. This was the case more or less in pre 4e D&D (ignoring wands of cure light that turned HP into an encounter resource here). To make fights deadly the game either had to be played at low levels where HP is low and damage can 1 shot you or random SoD effects had to be added into the encounters. If fights drained too much of the party's healing resources (Max HP, potions, spells, etc) the group would have to stop and rest. This sometimes created the necessity to bring along a healbot in order to maintain proper adventure pacing. In this method monster HP must be very high and damage must be very low when compared to the PCs.

In 4e there was a shift to encounter based healing. This meant the party entered every fight at or near full fighting capacity. Because of this fights felt very binary to some. Either the players will win or the players will lose. To make fights deadly each hit an enemy dealt would do about 25-35% of a players max HP. SoD effects were rare because they were no longer needed to make fights deadly. Adventure pacing was maintained because a group could usually go for 5+ encounters before being depleted of healing surges. Parties also were more willing to challenge themselves because they started every combat at full HP. In this method monster HP and Damage can be roughly equal to the values of the PCs.

Now both methods definitely have their advantages and disadvantages. What method would you prefer to see in D&D next and why?
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 11:06AM #2
bawylie
Date Joined: Jun 7, 2008
Posts: 959
I like HP as an encounter resource that reflects your Staying power or endurance in a fight. People used to describe a fighter as good-winded or strong breathed. I like that.

I prefer a longer-term "wound" thing that reflects longer-term consequences of fighting. Your adrenaline has worn down and now you're feeling the pain and are limping, etc.
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 11:14AM #3
whitebaron
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2007
Posts: 5,772
that's the reason why i like the surge mechanics or wounds systems.
you have encounter hp, and daily hp as well.

4e took it a bit too far, but in 3e it was even more an encounter ressource as wands of lesser vigor were like your daily morning coffee.
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 11:16AM #4
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,524
I, personally, would have liked to see D&D go to a purely, or nearly so, encounter-based resource system.  It would make encounters far easier to balance, as the party's capabilities would be roughly the same at the start of every encounter, and it would eliminate the five-minute-workday issue because one encounter or ten wouldn't make a difference.

The one caveat would be going to a system that differentiates 'knockout damage' versus 'lethal damage' by making them separate numbers.  Knockout damage would recover quickly, lethal damage slowly (barring magical intervention, of course).  However, we already know that's not going to happen.
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 11:21AM #5
Luis_Carlos
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 2,437
Tiredness, shield of karma or vitality?

In the past I thought it was the third, but when the hitpoints can be healed by no magic powers (4th Edition) now I´m not so sure. I can´t imagine a character who has lost lots of blood and almost die can be as fresh as a daisy with only a day of rest.

* I don´t know if we will some module about aggravated damage and undead powers of draining life.

If aggavated damage is a special type that it isn´t so easy to be healed, the gameplay could be too different. 

 
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 11:36AM #6
Mithrus
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 3,220
The challenge with encounter-based resources (more accurately described as short-rest refreshed resources) are when the chain-encounters occur. Sometimes that runner gets away, and the logical conclusion is help comes very soon (no time for a short rest). Those characters with primarily daily resources aren't really affected at all (the entire day is all one "encounter" for them), while the encounter-based characters are left with at-wills. The reverese is also a real issue. A daily resource character is pretty much gimped the remaining part of the day once all of their resources are spent.

IMO, both designs include significant flaws that are difficult to balance. Daily-centric characters need a partial-refresh mechanic for extended "days", and encounter-centric characters also need a partial-refresh mechanic for the chain encounters.
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 12:15PM #7
Dwarfslayer
Date Joined: Oct 25, 2010
Posts: 2,041
I like hit points as an encounter resource. Hit points are just so important that if they're supposed to deplete, PCs are going to pretty much use every means necessary to get more.
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 1:18PM #8
Saelorn
Date Joined: May 27, 2012
Posts: 2,934
I've always been a fan of HP as an adventure-based resource.  If you get injured by a stray arrow on day one, then maybe you won't be up to full when you come across that band of orcs on day three.  Sure, magical healing can help, but it's not going to be able to get everyone up to full all of the time.

The benefit of this model is that no single fight is going to be super lethal.  A fight where everyone loses a third of their HP is bordering on Pyrrhic victory.  If everyone gets injured, you might have to hole up in a cave for a few days while you recover, but you'll know going into a fight if you should probably run rather than try to swing it out.

You could also go into the den of evil, or the tower of ominousness, and know that doing it all in one go wouldn't be that much harder than if you spread out your incursions over the course of a week - it might even be easier, since they won't have so much warning that you'll be coming.
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 1:34PM #9
Drachasor
Date Joined: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 1,716

Jul 9, 2012 -- 1:18PM, Saelorn wrote:

I've always been a fan of HP as an adventure-based resource.  If you get injured by a stray arrow on day one, then maybe you won't be up to full when you come across that band of orcs on day three.  Sure, magical healing can help, but it's not going to be able to get everyone up to full all of the time.

The benefit of this model is that no single fight is going to be super lethal.  A fight where everyone loses a third of their HP is bordering on Pyrrhic victory.  If everyone gets injured, you might have to hole up in a cave for a few days while you recover, but you'll know going into a fight if you should probably run rather than try to swing it out.

You could also go into the den of evil, or the tower of ominousness, and know that doing it all in one go wouldn't be that much harder than if you spread out your incursions over the course of a week - it might even be easier, since they won't have so much warning that you'll be coming.




Well, my only comment on this is that D&D has never been this game out of the box.  Clerics and other classes can heal too much for this to work.  I guess it was a bit more like this in 1st and 2nd edition, but only a bit, imho.

I'd rather go with a Surge system like 4th Edition, but with fewer surges -- perhaps 4 per person.  I don't see why each class would have different numbers when the hit points already make a big difference.  In combat, I'd lean towards Surge effects only working if you are up and able.  Once you go down, you are unconscious for the rest of the fight.  However, at any point during this time you can take an Injury and go to 0 + Surge Value hit points -- this doesn't cost a surge.  You can even take an injury to stay up upon sustaining a blow that would down you.  An injury would give you a -1 penalty to AC and all d20 rolls, stacking with any other injuries you have.  To remove the latest injury, you have to rest for a number of days equal to the total number of injuries you have.

Of course, there'd be a limit to the number of injuries you can have at once...somewhere between 3 and 5 seems to be about right.  As long as you can take an injury, you can't bleed to death, but you can suffer a coup de grace and die if you don't get up.

Obviously that's just a sketch of a system, but if you want something where people can take a while to heal, I think a system like this will work better than trying to adjust the healing in the game.  It even works without healing surges (I just like surges as they make more sense).  There are lots of ways to modify the above system too, such as making different sorts of injuries that you can pick from with the possibility that further injuries are more serious.

It has the nice side effect of making it so that running away is more of an option.  Injuries would be bad enough that you'd want to avoid them, but if you decide to run away late then you can still get away..you just suffer some longer-lasting damage.  I think it avoids the death spiral by generating HP when used and it is something a player opts into.

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11 months ago  ::  Jul 09, 2012 - 1:41PM #10
Uskglass
Date Joined: Oct 17, 2007
Posts: 925
My preference is for 'volatile' HPs, meaning they recover after each battle., but lasting injuries, represented by surges, or some for of leathal damage.
The 4E model basically works for me, but I find that being able to recover all surges with just an extended rest is too forgiving. 
I also like the fact the HPs are a scaling value, but surges are pretty much a constant one, which is very useful for when normalised damage is needed.
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