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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 5:44PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2011
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I’ll tell ya what, I’ve read about ‘edition wars’ here plenty, but it’s a for-real thing. I wasn’t at Origins a whole hour before somebody said something to me. 6 or 8 of us were in line to play test D&D Next. This one guy’s friend stopped by and made some knucklehead joke to him. The guy said something like “Get out of here demon spawn… (heh) like Fourth Edition.” OK, my game group and I have been playing 4E since it came out. I even got my nephew and his friends into gaming with 4E and now they play more than I do. So there we are, my nephew, his two buddies, my friend and me and we all heard it. I decided to use Diplomacy instead of Intimidate and basically paraphrased the previous paragraph. He backed down - basically said he tried 4E and it wasn’t for him, and we played D&D Next and everything worked out OK. The guy turned out to be real cool, and I’d be glad to game with him again anytime. Less than 12 hours later in the Exhibit Hall, we’re talking to two D20 Girls and one of them takes a swipe at 4E. Now, I’m not gonna get into it with some girl half my age, wearing a miniskirt and cat ears, so I just told her we had a fun time with 4E, and if you’re having fun you’re doing it right, right? No. She just kept comin’ at 4E. I don’t really remember what her problems were with it, but I asked about her modeling career and she forgot all about how bad 4E was. So now I get why WOTC is scrambling to reunite the two camps, and I wish ‘em a lotta luck.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 5:54PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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Yeah it is tough.
If I point out flaws in 3e I'm alright by most here but I point out 4e flaws and I'm attacked for it.
The door swings both ways on this one.
There is just such a major divide mechanically and style wise between the systems.
But the 1e and 2e stalwarts are no less guilty.
Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:00PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2006
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This isn't new, nor is it unique to this corner of nerd-dom. I've seen absolutely nasty fights over comic book, video game, or televison franchises at various conventions.
Best thing to do is ignore it, unless they say something arrogant and false, then you cut them down to size.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:07PM
#4
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Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.
While I've never experienced edition warring in person, i.e. IRL, I've been through it twice now on these forums. A lot of us are prone to overreact, or assume motives that aren't there, after being exposed to the rabid edition warring online. I'm convinced that surviving an edition war is the gamer version of PTSD.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:14PM
#5
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Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.
While I've never experienced edition warring in person, i.e. IRL, I've been through it twice now on these forums. A lot of us are prone to overreact, or assume motives that aren't there, after being exposed to the rabid edition warring online. I'm convinced that surviving an edition war is the gamer version of PTSD.
Keep looking for the "like" button on this post...
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:29PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2008
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Yeah it is tough. If I point out flaws in 3e I'm alright by most here but I point out 4e flaws and I'm attacked for it. The door swings both ways on this one. There is just such a major divide mechanically and style wise between the systems. But the 1e and 2e stalwarts are no less guilty. Heck even I respond less than diplomatically when hit by the crossfire.
That depends on what you claim those flaws are- if you want to say the math is all screwed up forcing feat taxes I'd have no problem with that. Want to bash the "economy" they have I'll weigh in as well. Want to attack the magic item built into character advancement- you'll get no complaints from me. Skill challenges, loooong boring combats at times, class or race bloat without adequate support etc etc
4e Wasn't perfect and I'd happily see some of the problems fixed.
Want to trot out "all classes are the same", "fighters shouldn't get cool stuff because well MAGIC", healing surges/martial healing are the devil etc etc ad naseum that I see all the time then i've no use for your statements
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:32PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived.
You haven't lived.
(Which isn't to say it's a D&D specific issue; this individual will say the same thing about anything within his range of "knowledge" if he dislikes it. The moral of the story being: Awesome people do awesome things.)
Feedback Disclaimer
Show
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)My 4e Projects
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:36PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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Just add all of stoloc's acceptable and unacceptable complaints together and thats a good start on my list.
I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it. If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.
These boards and the ever ongoing war though has taught me some patience and the skill of writing like a near lawyer all the time.
Hopefully 5e will bind up the wounds and move us forward. We can only hope. Hopefully we won't just get another front in the wars.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:40PM
#9
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Just add all of stoloc's acceptable and unacceptable complaints together and thats a good start on my list.
I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it. If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.
Maybe it's the gamer PTSD talking, but it sounds like you're saying 4e wasn't D&D. If you are, then I'm sure you'll create another front for the edition war at your convenience. If not, then you propably should have phrased that better.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:48PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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Just add all of stoloc's acceptable and unacceptable complaints together and thats a good start on my list.
I think the thing that stung was they slapped the name D&D on it. If they'd called it something different no one would have had a war.
Maybe it's the gamer PTSD talking, but it sounds like you're saying 4e wasn't D&D. If you are, then I'm sure you'll create another front for the edition war at your convenience. If not, then you propably should have phrased that better.
I guess my point and perhaps I wasn't as diplomatic as I should have been but 4e broke too much from what D&D has always been. Not sure where that line is at but a lot of people felt like it was a game that didn't share many roots with the original. I didn't say no roots. So I guess a game that makes the radical changes that 4e made went too far to just be an edition of an earlier game. It offered a style of play very different from what had gone before (good or bad depending on the person of course).
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