currently fighter surge is the fighters defining ability. We do not yet know how many used of it he will get at later level.
they said they are thinking of putting in general combat manuvers where you take a penalty to hit to achieve a effect. I would like to see somthing like the folowing added to fighter surge:
when you use fighter surge to use a combat manuver reduce the penalty by the folowing amount 1 at level 1 to 4 2 at level 5 to 8 3 at level 9 to 12 4 at level 12 to 16 5 at level 16 to 20
You can just spend a surge to use the maneuver twice. That more-or-less offsets the penality. Really, one more action is a very, very versatile thing... No, it isn`t all the Fighter should have, but if it stays on, other abilities must be designed with that in mind.
And switching between stances is cool.
My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot".
He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser.
So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
currently fighter surge is the fighters defining ability. We do not yet know how many used of it he will get at later level.
they said they are thinking of putting in general combat manuvers where you take a penalty to hit to achieve a effect. I would like to see somthing like the folowing added to fighter surge:
when you use fighter surge to use a combat manuver reduce the penalty by the folowing amount 1 at level 1 to 4 2 at level 5 to 8 3 at level 9 to 12 4 at level 12 to 16 5 at level 16 to 20
My take on the fighter replaces the fighter surge we saw in the playtest. However, you can create a fighter with a similar type of dynamic with the Critical Action stance.
1. best hit points and attack bonus of the classes. 2. fighting maneuvers only accessible to them. 3. combat leadership feats, so you can mix-and-match these with maneuvers for cool effects.
Without all three of these things, the Fighter will be lacking.
I think the fighter needs to be best at armor as well as weapons. Shouldn't fighter have an innate bonus to AC or similar, such that a cleric in full plate just isn't as protected as a fighter in full plate?
Sounds fine to me, and the armor bonus and attack bonus could be on the same advancement scale.
I think the extra hit points are what define the fighter as more capable of surviving combat important because it negates the need for additional rules and complexities for something already covered. Simpler and more elegant rules equate to more time playing the game, and less time preparing to play the game and also less time stopping to verify what your armor class is depending on your class.
Really I think fighters really only need the first item.. more hit points, better chance to hit. The more hit points gives them the best chance to live through a toe-to-toe melee, while the better chance to hit makes them better at combat maneuvers. When all is said and done, melee combat boils down to this... "stick them with the pointy end". Fighter's have the best chance to succeed at this without totally eliminating the possibility for other classes to succeed at this basic task.
As far as leadership feats go: some feats may apply best to fighters, but there's plenty a fighting man willing to fight to the death at the word of his spiritual leader (cleric) as well...
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells? DM: Awesome. Yes.
1. best hit points and attack bonus of the classes. 2. fighting maneuvers only accessible to them. 3. combat leadership feats, so you can mix-and-match these with maneuvers for cool effects.
Without all three of these things, the Fighter will be lacking.
I think the fighter needs to be best at armor as well as weapons. Shouldn't fighter have an innate bonus to AC or similar, such that a cleric in full plate just isn't as protected as a fighter in full plate?
Sounds fine to me, and the armor bonus and attack bonus could be on the same advancement scale.
I think the extra hit points are what define the fighter as more capable of surviving combat important because it negates the need for additional rules and complexities for something already covered. Simpler and more elegant rules equate to more time playing the game, and less time preparing to play the game and also less time stopping to verify what your armor class is depending on your class.
Really I think fighters really only need the first item.. more hit points, better chance to hit. The more hit points gives them the best chance to live through a toe-to-toe melee, while the better chance to hit makes them better at combat maneuvers. When all is said and done, melee combat boils down to this... "stick them with the pointy end". Fighter's have the best chance to succeed at this without totally eliminating the possibility for other classes to succeed at this basic task.
As far as leadership feats go: some feats may apply best to fighters, but there's plenty a fighting man willing to fight to the death at the word of his spiritual leader (cleric) as well...
Just use the basic Fighter and let others get the complex Fighter they want.
My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot".
He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser.
So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
Based on the feedback I have recieved in this and other related threads, I had a brain fever that could only be cooled by trying to take a whack at the whole fighter class. I have left out a few basic details such as starting and leveling HP, weapon and armor proficiencies, and ability scores. I wanted to focus on the different ways fighters do what they do. I decided the core of fighters would be stances. The stances you choose correspond more with playstyle, than specific actions. Indeed, several of these stances give you access to subsystems (which may or may not be fighter specific). The PHB would give advice on how different stances create different play experiences. Several of the stances have a resource management component, and the DMG can provide advice on how to adjust resource management to fit the pacing and tone of a campaign. If you make it through all of this, I have some additional notes at the end.
Fighters
Fighters can perform amazing acts through the application of their incredible martial prowess. Fighters are a widely varied group and there are many ways to demonstrate their capabilities. However they approach a situation all fighters have basic competency in combat. This is reflected in receiving a +1 to weapon attacks, a +1 to AC, and a +2 to weapon damage rolls. The broad range of fighter talents is represented by the myriad stances a fighter can assume.
Fighter Stances
Fighters are always ready for whatever is around the corner or over the next hill and this readiness is visible in a fighter’s chosen stances. As a fighter you know two basic stances at first level (or may know one stance with one boost), but only one may be active at a time. You only receive the benefits of and can access the capabilities of a stance when the stance is active. You should designate one stance as the default stance that is always active. When not in combat rounds, you can generally change your stance whenever you are conscious. During combat your stance can be changed on your turn as a free action, to any stance you know, once per round.
You may select one new basic stance or boost one stance you know each time you gain a new fighter level. At level 4 you gain the ability to maintain two stances at once, but you can still only change one stance per round. At level 7 you may change your stance when rolling initiative. At levels 10 and above you may enhance any basic stance you know with an advanced version of the stance, instead of adding or boosting a basic stance. You may also boost an advanced stance you know after level 10. Only one of your two active stances may be an advanced stance. At level 14 you may have up to three active stances, but still with no more than one being advanced. At level 17 two of your three active stances may be advanced.
Basic Stances
Precision: You know how to get the most out of each attack. You gain a +2 bonus to weapon damage rolls. Each time you boost this stance, the damage bonus increases by 1.
Armor Expertise: You know how to maximize the protection afforded by armor. When you activate this stance while wearing armor, your max and current HP increase by 5 each. Each time you boost this stance, the benefit increases by an additional 3 HP.
Physical Superiority: Your control of your body is superb. Choose from strength, dexterity, or constitution; ability checks and contests made with this ability are reliable (a roll under 10 is treated as a 10). Each time you boost this stance, you may choose an additional physical ability.
Shielding Cover: You know how to move you shield to just the right position. Chose from strength, dexterity or constitution; while wielding a shield, saves of the selected type are made with advantage. Each time you boost this stance, you can apply its benefit to a new physical save type.
Vitality: Battle invigorates you. Each time you hit with a weapon attack, you gain 2 temporary hit points. You may have no more than twice your fighter level in temporary hit points. The temporary hit points expire when you take a quick recovery. Each time you boost this stance, the temp HP gained on a hit increases by 1.
Critical Action: Your successes spur you on to greater heights. Each time you score a critical hit with a weapon attack, you gain an action point, which must be used by the end of your next turn. An action point can be expended to perform an extra action, move, or reaction. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional turn in which to use your extra action.
Combat Versatility: You know how to use various tricks to confound your opponents. You may perform one Basic Maneuver without penalty. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional Basic Maneuver to perform without penalty.
Weapon Style: Your long hours spent practicing with all manner of weapons gives you a distinct edge. You learn and can use one Basic Weapon Technique. Each time you boost this stance, you learn an additional Basic Weapon Technique.
Empowering Resolve: You know how to channel your inner reserves to great effect. You gain 3 vigor points and can use them to enhance your actions. You can spend no more than your fighter level in vigor points per turn. You regain your fighter level of vigor points with a quick recovery and all your vigor points with an extended recovery. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional 2 vigor points.
Martial Exploits: You have practiced advanced maneuvers for many situations. You gain two martial exploits. Each time you boost this stance you gain an additional exploit or can upgrade an exploit you already know to an improved exploit. You may have no more than half your fighter level plus two exploits [(FL/2)+2]. No more than half your exploits can be improved.
Advanced Stances
Advanced Precision: You can penetrate any opponent’s defenses. On weapon attacks you ignore resistance to one damage type chosen from bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. Each time you boost this stance you may pick a new damage type and increase your Precision damage by 2 (you may gain the damage bonus even if you have no damage types remaining to select).
Advanced Armor Expertise: Armor is like a second skin. Choose from strength, dexterity, or constitution; ability checks and contests made with this ability no longer suffer an armor penalty. Each time you boost this stance the benefit applies to a new physical ability. When you select this stance and when you boost this stance you increase the benefit of Armor Expertise by 6 HP.
Advanced Physical Superiority: Physical obstacles rarely challenge you. Choose from strength, dexterity, or constitution; ability checks and contests made with this ability have advantage. Each time you boost this stance, you may choose an additional physical ability.
Advanced Shielding Cover: Your shield is a prime asset in protecting yourself. Chose from strength, dexterity or constitution; while wielding a shield, on a failed physical save of the selected type, you take half damage. Each time you boost this stance, you can apply its benefit to a new physical save type.
Advanced Vitality: Battle invigorates you like nothing else. You may now have up to three times your fighter level in temporary HP. When you select this stance and each time you boost this stance, your temp HP per hit increases by 2.
Advanced Critical Action: One strike from your weapon can turn the tide of battle. You can now score a critical hit with weapon attacks on a 19 or 20. This advanced stance cannot be boosted, but you may continue to boost Critical Action.
Advanced Combat Versatility: Your opponents won’t know what hit ‘em. You may perform any two Basic Maneuvers you have selected with the Combat Versatility stance simultaneously without penalty. This advanced stance cannot be boosted, but you may continue to boost Combat Versatility.
Advanced Weapon Style: Your weapons dance. You gain one Advanced Weapon Technique. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional Advanced Weapon Technique.
Advanced Empowering Resolve: You inner might can drive you to amazing heights. You gain 5 vigor points. You may now combine two effects in one action and you can spend up to twice your fighter level in vigor points per turn. You also now regain twice your fighter level in vigor points with a quick recovery. Each time you boost this stance you gain 3 additional vigor points.
Advanced Martial Exploits: You always have something special up your scabbard. When you select this stance and each time you boost this stance you may upgrade an improved exploit you know to an advanced exploit. You may have no more than one quarter your fighter level in advanced exploits. You may also continue to boost Martial Exploits.
Notes
Physical Superiority: I have borrowed the rogue skill mastery for reliability.
Vitality: A quick recover occurs at the end of a battle (borrowed from 4e’s short rest). See my blog on healing if you want to learn more.
Combat Versatility: I am making assumptions about how basic combat maneuvers such as bull rush, trip, and disarm will be implemented.
Weapon Style: This is based on my earlier post about weapon techniques. They will need some adjustments as now this subsystem will be more broadly available. In short, you can trade damage for extra effects on a hit with a weapon.
Empowering Resolve: This subsystem will need a schedule of how points can be spent. If someone selects this stance, they are likely to put most (if not all) there boosts into it. Also, extended recovery is from my healing blog, but it is basically an overnight rest.
Martial Exploits: This is a major subsystem that creates tome of battle or 4e style powers. This system would contain encounter (reset on quick recovery) and daily (reset on extended recovery) powers of both combat and non-combat utility. Players would be free to choose any they wanted of the appropriate level. For now the powers only have three levels – plain, improved, and advanced. This is another stance that is likely to dominate leveling if it is selected.
I have strived for the greatest versatility in playstyles covered by these stances. Despite my earlier protestations about numbers, I decided to plug in some numbers to make it easier to understand and discuss the concepts. However, it still important not to get hung up on the numbers due to the need for extensive playtesting.
These look like great spells!
A rogue with a bowl of slop can be a controller.
WIZARD PC: Can I substitute Celestial Roc Guano for my fireball spells? DM: Awesome. Yes.
Based on the feedback I have recieved in this and other related threads, I had a brain fever that could only be cooled by trying to take a whack at the whole fighter class. I have left out a few basic details such as starting and leveling HP, weapon and armor proficiencies, and ability scores. I wanted to focus on the different ways fighters do what they do. I decided the core of fighters would be stances. The stances you choose correspond more with playstyle, than specific actions. Indeed, several of these stances give you access to subsystems (which may or may not be fighter specific). The PHB would give advice on how different stances create different play experiences. Several of the stances have a resource management component, and the DMG can provide advice on how to adjust resource management to fit the pacing and tone of a campaign. If you make it through all of this, I have some additional notes at the end.
Fighters
Fighters can perform amazing acts through the application of their incredible martial prowess. Fighters are a widely varied group and there are many ways to demonstrate their capabilities. However they approach a situation all fighters have basic competency in combat. This is reflected in receiving a +1 to weapon attacks, a +1 to AC, and a +2 to weapon damage rolls. The broad range of fighter talents is represented by the myriad stances a fighter can assume.
Fighter Stances
Fighters are always ready for whatever is around the corner or over the next hill and this readiness is visible in a fighter’s chosen stances. As a fighter you know two basic stances at first level (or may know one stance with one boost), but only one may be active at a time. You only receive the benefits of and can access the capabilities of a stance when the stance is active. You should designate one stance as the default stance that is always active. When not in combat rounds, you can generally change your stance whenever you are conscious. During combat your stance can be changed on your turn as a free action, to any stance you know, once per round.
You may select one new basic stance or boost one stance you know each time you gain a new fighter level. At level 4 you gain the ability to maintain two stances at once, but you can still only change one stance per round. At level 7 you may change your stance when rolling initiative. At levels 10 and above you may enhance any basic stance you know with an advanced version of the stance, instead of adding or boosting a basic stance. You may also boost an advanced stance you know after level 10. Only one of your two active stances may be an advanced stance. At level 14 you may have up to three active stances, but still with no more than one being advanced. At level 17 two of your three active stances may be advanced.
Basic Stances
Precision: You know how to get the most out of each attack. You gain a +2 bonus to weapon damage rolls. Each time you boost this stance, the damage bonus increases by 1.
Armor Expertise: You know how to maximize the protection afforded by armor. When you activate this stance while wearing armor, your max and current HP increase by 5 each. Each time you boost this stance, the benefit increases by an additional 3 HP.
Physical Superiority: Your control of your body is superb. Choose from strength, dexterity, or constitution; ability checks and contests made with this ability are reliable (a roll under 10 is treated as a 10). Each time you boost this stance, you may choose an additional physical ability.
Shielding Cover: You know how to move you shield to just the right position. Chose from strength, dexterity or constitution; while wielding a shield, saves of the selected type are made with advantage. Each time you boost this stance, you can apply its benefit to a new physical save type.
Vitality: Battle invigorates you. Each time you hit with a weapon attack, you gain 2 temporary hit points. You may have no more than twice your fighter level in temporary hit points. The temporary hit points expire when you take a quick recovery. Each time you boost this stance, the temp HP gained on a hit increases by 1.
Critical Action: Your successes spur you on to greater heights. Each time you score a critical hit with a weapon attack, you gain an action point, which must be used by the end of your next turn. An action point can be expended to perform an extra action, move, or reaction. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional turn in which to use your extra action.
Combat Versatility: You know how to use various tricks to confound your opponents. You may perform one Basic Maneuver without penalty. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional Basic Maneuver to perform without penalty.
Weapon Style: Your long hours spent practicing with all manner of weapons gives you a distinct edge. You learn and can use one Basic Weapon Technique. Each time you boost this stance, you learn an additional Basic Weapon Technique.
Empowering Resolve: You know how to channel your inner reserves to great effect. You gain 3 vigor points and can use them to enhance your actions. You can spend no more than your fighter level in vigor points per turn. You regain your fighter level of vigor points with a quick recovery and all your vigor points with an extended recovery. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional 2 vigor points.
Martial Exploits: You have practiced advanced maneuvers for many situations. You gain two martial exploits. Each time you boost this stance you gain an additional exploit or can upgrade an exploit you already know to an improved exploit. You may have no more than half your fighter level plus two exploits [(FL/2)+2]. No more than half your exploits can be improved.
Advanced Stances
Advanced Precision: You can penetrate any opponent’s defenses. On weapon attacks you ignore resistance to one damage type chosen from bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. Each time you boost this stance you may pick a new damage type and increase your Precision damage by 2 (you may gain the damage bonus even if you have no damage types remaining to select).
Advanced Armor Expertise: Armor is like a second skin. Choose from strength, dexterity, or constitution; ability checks and contests made with this ability no longer suffer an armor penalty. Each time you boost this stance the benefit applies to a new physical ability. When you select this stance and when you boost this stance you increase the benefit of Armor Expertise by 6 HP.
Advanced Physical Superiority: Physical obstacles rarely challenge you. Choose from strength, dexterity, or constitution; ability checks and contests made with this ability have advantage. Each time you boost this stance, you may choose an additional physical ability.
Advanced Shielding Cover: Your shield is a prime asset in protecting yourself. Chose from strength, dexterity or constitution; while wielding a shield, on a failed physical save of the selected type, you take half damage. Each time you boost this stance, you can apply its benefit to a new physical save type.
Advanced Vitality: Battle invigorates you like nothing else. You may now have up to three times your fighter level in temporary HP. When you select this stance and each time you boost this stance, your temp HP per hit increases by 2.
Advanced Critical Action: One strike from your weapon can turn the tide of battle. You can now score a critical hit with weapon attacks on a 19 or 20. This advanced stance cannot be boosted, but you may continue to boost Critical Action.
Advanced Combat Versatility: Your opponents won’t know what hit ‘em. You may perform any two Basic Maneuvers you have selected with the Combat Versatility stance simultaneously without penalty. This advanced stance cannot be boosted, but you may continue to boost Combat Versatility.
Advanced Weapon Style: Your weapons dance. You gain one Advanced Weapon Technique. Each time you boost this stance, you gain an additional Advanced Weapon Technique.
Advanced Empowering Resolve: You inner might can drive you to amazing heights. You gain 5 vigor points. You may now combine two effects in one action and you can spend up to twice your fighter level in vigor points per turn. You also now regain twice your fighter level in vigor points with a quick recovery. Each time you boost this stance you gain 3 additional vigor points.
Advanced Martial Exploits: You always have something special up your scabbard. When you select this stance and each time you boost this stance you may upgrade an improved exploit you know to an advanced exploit. You may have no more than one quarter your fighter level in advanced exploits. You may also continue to boost Martial Exploits.
Notes
Physical Superiority: I have borrowed the rogue skill mastery for reliability.
Vitality: A quick recover occurs at the end of a battle (borrowed from 4e’s short rest). See my blog on healing if you want to learn more.
Combat Versatility: I am making assumptions about how basic combat maneuvers such as bull rush, trip, and disarm will be implemented.
Weapon Style: This is based on my earlier post about weapon techniques. They will need some adjustments as now this subsystem will be more broadly available. In short, you can trade damage for extra effects on a hit with a weapon.
Empowering Resolve: This subsystem will need a schedule of how points can be spent. If someone selects this stance, they are likely to put most (if not all) there boosts into it. Also, extended recovery is from my healing blog, but it is basically an overnight rest.
Martial Exploits: This is a major subsystem that creates tome of battle or 4e style powers. This system would contain encounter (reset on quick recovery) and daily (reset on extended recovery) powers of both combat and non-combat utility. Players would be free to choose any they wanted of the appropriate level. For now the powers only have three levels – plain, improved, and advanced. This is another stance that is likely to dominate leveling if it is selected.
I have strived for the greatest versatility in playstyles covered by these stances. Despite my earlier protestations about numbers, I decided to plug in some numbers to make it easier to understand and discuss the concepts. However, it still important not to get hung up on the numbers due to the need for extensive playtesting.
These look like great spells!
Except that they look nothing like spells at all. They look like dynamic options for the fighter to take. Unless you consider anything other than "I swing my sword" a spell.
Gilbert, those are some very solid ideas, and while I don't particularly like any of the temporary HP stances (simply because I don't like temp HP as a mechanic, but I think you're still going in the right direction), I still really like where it's going and the option's they'd offer.
Abilities like that, I'd rather see some small DR or even Resistance to a damage type (since they've said they're doing away with DR in this edition because there's not "room" which makes no sense to me), or just plain self healing, in small HP increments.
I think the extra hit points are what define the fighter as more capable of surviving combat important because it negates the need for additional rules and complexities for something already covered. Simpler and more elegant rules equate to more time playing the game, and less time preparing to play the game and also less time stopping to verify what your armor class is depending on your class.
Really I think fighters really only need the first item.. more hit points, better chance to hit. The more hit points gives them the best chance to live through a toe-to-toe melee, while the better chance to hit makes them better at combat maneuvers. When all is said and done, melee combat boils down to this... "stick them with the pointy end". Fighter's have the best chance to succeed at this without totally eliminating the possibility for other classes to succeed at this basic task.
As far as leadership feats go: some feats may apply best to fighters, but there's plenty a fighting man willing to fight to the death at the word of his spiritual leader (cleric) as well...
As to that, the concept that melee combat boils down strictly to "stick them with the pointy end" is exactly the mentality that has so many people advocating a high-mechanical-engagement alternative. Not only is that combat model boring for many players, but it's also vaguely insulting to many people who enjoy martial classes. That's like saying the Wizard should only be able to cast magic missile.
You referred to some of Gilbert's proposed stances as spells, and if it helps to think of them that way, then go for it. Somebody else started a thread titled "a fighter's sword should be his cantrip", and in some ways it's absolutely right. There are a hundred things you can do in a fight BESIDES just swing your sword, and if the fighter is supposed to be the master of combat, why aren't any of those things represented?
Yes, if you push his HP and attack bonus ratios high enough then he'll have numeric superiority over any opponent. If that's the only way you want to attempt to represent their skill and style, then you may as well skip combat with him and just get out your spreadsheet. Enter in each opponents stats, and you can crunch out how combat goes in a few seconds, because honestly it equates to about the same thing.
Lastly, the "but it takes longer to create a character" argument has always baffled me. Yeah, it does, but who cares? First and foremost, it's something you can do AHEAD OF TIME. I know that's just crazy talk, but you know what offers more play time than quick character creation? Coming to a game session PREPARED. If that's not reasonable to ask/expect of your players, then unless all you play are one-nighters, you only need to build a character at the start of a campaign, or if you happen to get squished along the way. I've played games that were VERY lethal, and my character might kick the bucket every few sessions, so I'd have another one ready to go for when this guy dies. If it's something that happens only occasionally, then once again, I don't see the issue. But who knows, maybe I'm just weird.
