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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 5:50PM
#111
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I share OP's concerns.
This is why I am desirous to see a playtest that goes a little further into the levels.
As to the Target shoot mentioned early, if it were direct competition, it could be argued that they should roll an opposed check. On the surface, it changes nothing, but the DM could ad hoc in advantage or disadvantage to reflect the differences between the contestants.
This still doesn't adresss the actual lack of increased ability to hit a target with one's arrow, however.
This (coupled with static skill bonuses) has brought up the other reason I want to see a more level spanning playtest... Do characters actually get better at anything when they level?
Everyone gets:
Higher Hp: Which was described as a sum of luck, reaction, divine provinence and stamina, so some personal improvement there. So we all get a little Combat Pillar growth
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...
That's it.
Fighters do more damage. Combat Pillar Again
Rogues do more advantage damage, advantage on checks twice a day, and gain a vision enhancer. Combat Pillar and a nod to Exploration Pillar (almost making up for the pre-gen's inability to find traps as well as either Cleric).
Clerics and Wizards gain more spells, which may, depending on spells chosen, make them significantly better in Either Combat or Interaction. I have seen few Exploration Pillar spells printed so far. Mage Hand and Comprehend Languages(also Interaction, depending) coming to mind.
Again, I feel it is too early to say for sure, but I am mildly concerned.
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 5:51PM
#112
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2007
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It's not just one monster. And like I said, if you have +X armor and shield then it's not just one monster, it's every sample monster we've been given.
You may wish to note that, at this point, +X armor and shield (and all +X items, actually) have been relegated "optional" and are going to be assumed absent by the core system math.
Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 5:56PM
#113
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It's not just one monster. And like I said, if you have +X armor and shield then it's not just one monster, it's every sample monster we've been given.
You may wish to note that, at this point, +X armor and shield (and all +X items, actually) have been relegated "optional" and are going to be assumed absent by the core system math.
Optional or not, when they do show up in a game they wreck the bounded accuracy system. Yes, you can choose to ignore it, but that doesn't change the fact that if you use the rule as provided, then the game's design goals fail. The system similarly falls apart if you get ANY sort of bonuses to AC to characters as they level, or from feats/class features/race (something that almost universally gets suggested to me in these discussions as something that would help fix bounded accuracy by providing some scaling).
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:18PM
#114
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2003
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Even if a Kobold or Orc doesn't remain a threat at 10th level, that doesn't mean tightly controlled (e.g. bounded) accuracy has failed.
You'll still have the fact that, using 4E's parlance, a Solo enemy won't have to be created using specialized rules for determining its statistics. He's just a notably higher level opponent (say 3-5 levels higher). Unlike 3E, this won't cause scaling problems where the enemy pretty much always hits and is very hard to hit himself. So there's still a potential advantage here...though I am not certainly how well this will work in the current hit point/defense system.
For instance, you'd ideally want a system here where a guy say 2 levels higher had X% more hit points. So there'd be some consistency with how "solos" worked. Really just X% tougher works, which could be handled other ways with DR or whatever, but the principle is the same.
I think the biggest problem for bounded accuracy is simply the fact that ability checks and the like aren't mediated by hit points to determine their actual effect. So you can't have bounded accuracy remain and adjust the "damage" inflicted by higher level characters when picking a lock or what-have-you. If they had this, then I think it would resolve most problems even if the bounds on accuracy slowly changed as characters leveled.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:25PM
#115
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2005
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Where are people seeing that in bounded accuracy every mob will be usable forever? I never read that, I read that they would be usable for a longer period.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:27PM
#116
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Where are people seeing that in bounded accuracy every mob will be usable forever? I never read that, I read that they would be usable for a longer period.
You're right. That is all they said. They did never define how much longer, so there is room for speculation as to whether we're talking 5 levels, 10, or even 15.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:35PM
#117
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I think the biggest problem for bounded accuracy is simply the fact that ability checks and the like aren't mediated by hit points to determine their actual effect. So you can't have bounded accuracy remain and adjust the "damage" inflicted by higher level characters when picking a lock or what-have-you. If they had this, then I think it would resolve most problems even if the bounds on accuracy slowly changed as characters leveled.
You don't need to quantitatively describe the challenge of skill DCs, qualitatively is fine. Your rogue goes from being pretty good at breaking into shops, to breaking into palaces, to breaking into demi-god treasure vaults.
Bounded accuracy doesn't affect the above rogue in the slightest. The thing that bounded accuracy fixes is the idea that the wizard, with no training, magic use, specialized tools, or increased ability scores, is able to spontaneously learn how to break into shops and maybe palaces while doing absolutely nothing to justify it, just because he's Mr. Awesome Wizard and has fireballed many kobolds.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:49PM
#118
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I am still not seeing how bounded accuracy encourages the player to play. I can see it reducing the incentive quite easily. So how is bounded accuracy supposed to get the player into the game?
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:52PM
#119
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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from the playtest...every class require diferent amount of xp to level up...another thing brought for D&DNext for no logical reason beside nostalgia.
What makes you say that ?
All the Pregens have the following progression in this Playtest Packet so far:
Level 1: 0 XP
Level 2: 2,000 XP
Level 3: 6,000 XP
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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11 months ago ::
Jul 04, 2012 - 6:54PM
#120
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I am still not seeing how bounded accuracy encourages the player to play. I can see it reducing the incentive quite easily. So how is bounded accuracy supposed to get the player into the game?
I'm not seeing how it reduces or encourages the player to play. It just reduces number bloat.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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