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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 6:07PM #1
dmgorgon
Date Joined: Jan 10, 2012
Posts: 3,147

I've been looking at my 2e dmg and I noticed an interesting chart.      






EQUIPMENT BY TIME PERIOD



Item 


Ancient 


Dark Ages 


Middle Ages 


Re-issance 


Arquebus 








AV 


Awl Pike 






AV 


AV 


Bastard Sword 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Block and Tackle 






AV 


AV 


Bolt Case 






AV 


AV 


Brigandine 






AV 


AV 


Bronze Plate Mail 


AV 








Carriage, any 








AV 


Chain Mail 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Composite Long Bow 






AV 


AV 


Crossbow, any 






AV 


AV 


Field Plate 






AV 


AV 


Flail, any 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Full Plate 








AV 


Full Plate Barding 








AV 


Glaive 








AV 


Glass 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Glass Bottle 






AV 


AV 


Great Helm 






AV 


AV 


Greek Fire 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Heavy Horse Lance 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Heavy War Horse 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Horse Yoke 






AV 


AV 


Hose 






AV 


AV 


Jousting Lance 






AV 


AV 


Kopesh Sword 


AV 








Lantern, any 






AV 


AV 


Lock, any 




Poor 


Average 


Good 


Long Bow 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Magnifying Glass 








AV 


Mancatcher 






AV 


AV 


Morning Star 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Paper 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Papyrus 


AV 








Plate Mail 






AV 


AV 


Pole arms, not pike 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Pony Cart 






AV 


AV 


Ring Mail 




AV 


AV 




Sailing ship 






AV 


AV 


Scimitar 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Silk Clothes 




Very Rare 


Rare 


Rare 


Silk Rope 




Very Rare 


Rare 


Rare 


Spyglass 








AV 


Two-Handed Sword 




AV 


AV 


AV 


Voulge 




AV 


AV 


AV 



--Not Available, AV-Available



 

Does anyone think that with 5e such a chart will be possible?    I guess if the armor bonuses are not baked into the system math then martial classes won't require access to specific armor types.  
I'm hoping 5e doesn't make assumptions on what type of campaign you'll be playing.  

From that perspective, that's one thing I really liked about how the 2e DMG was written.    It was something that was completely lost in 3e and 4e.    2e didn't assume or force any particular play style on the DM, in fact it gave the DM more ideas. 

 


The equipment lists given in the Player's Handbook assume your campaign is set in a generic medieval fantasy world. In practical terms, this means you haven't tied your campaign to any particular date in history. All this is perfectly fine and is commonly done in fantasy stories and fantasy campaigns--you are dealing with fantasy, after all.

However, it is also possible to create exciting and interesting campaigns that are tied to specific time periods, but this will work only if you know something about the time period. This is important! A lot of people assume things about the past without knowing the facts. The truth of the matter may be far different. Go to the library and do your homework before you begin designing a time-specific campaign. Even if you don't do such a campaign, it's useful to learn a little more about medieval history. It will only improve your own fantasy world.


It is not necessary to pick a precise date to model, such as 1237 A.D., although again there is nothing wrong with this. History and historians tend to divide the past into different ages, and you can do the same. Four different ages are covered here--the Ancient World, the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages, and the Re-issance. Each has its peculiarities and differences, some of which are described below.

... 


The Ancient World
This covers a period of great empires spreading from the Mediterranean. Some weapons and armor were made of bronze, others of iron, and a few were made of steel. Most household items were pottery, wood, stone, and wicker. Bronze weapons were easily dulled and, in game terms, break or bend when a "1" is rolled on the attack roll. Stirrups hadn't been invented, so characters can't use heavy lances, and charge attacks can't be made with normal lances.


The Dark Ages
This was the period after the collapse of the Roman Empire, from 450 A.D. to about 1100 A.D. While much of the learning and culture of the ancient world was lost, it was not as bleak and ignorant a period as some believe. Still, in many ways, it was a step backward from the previous age. During this time the stirrup was introduced, allowing riders to gain full use of the lance.
Table of Contents


The Middle Ages
The Middle Ages (roughly from 1100 to 1450) is the period in which most fantasy campaigns are set. It was the period most people associate with knighthood and chivalry. The knights went off on the Crusades. Great stone castles were built. The role of traders and merchants began to grow. Virtually all the items on the equipment list were available in this time period.


The Re-issance
The latest time period that should be considered as a setting for a normal AD&D campaign, the Renaissance was a time of great change. The collapse of the feudal system had begun throughout much of Europe. There was great growth in literature, art, and science. The power of the old nobility began to decline while the influence and wealth of merchants and businessmen continued to grow. Gunpowder and simple guns revolutionized the face



 
 

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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 6:12PM #2
Saelorn
Date Joined: May 27, 2012
Posts: 3,122
It's a fun chart.  I like how the answer to, "Why is the bad guy not wearing full plate?" could sometimes be, "Her culture hasn't invented full plate yet."  It's great for displaying a clash between cultures.
The metagame is not the game.
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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 7:48PM #3
Haldrik
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2004
Posts: 9,568
You can make that chart visually clearer. AV and NA look too similar for a quick scan. Maybe replace the NA with a dash −. Then you only see info where it exists. [Edit: Much better!]

As you can see, I intend to refer to this chart in the future.



D&D is fantasy, and homebrew worlds will mix and reinvent these items. But there is a gulf between ignorance versus poetic license ... between doing it wrong versus doing it wrong on purpose!
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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 8:43PM #4
Gurka
Date Joined: Jun 23, 2012
Posts: 309
I've always thought the most fun settings are those that are based on a specific period in history, but sometimes with different geography and/or nations, and typically with magic. Basing it off of a given level of available technology, medicine, and social/national structures really anchors it for me personally, and allows of a very different style of gameplay than does the "generic" fantasy setting. For that to work, the "presence" of magic usually has to be minimal though.

A lot of settings also don't take into account just how much the existence of functional magic would alter the world. The way science and technology develop as well as the way everyone from individuals all the way up to governments approach problems and solutions. How prevalent magic is will alter those things nearly as much as will it's simple existence.

That's a handy list, but the time periods on quite a bit of it are off significantly.

The composite bow for instance is known to have been around since 2000 BC, developed by many different cultures in arid climates. Block and Tackle pully systems were invented by the Greeks around 300 BC, and the Celts were using various types of chain mail as far back as 300 BC as well. Crossbows have been found in and around China dating back to around 500 BC. Those are just a few that popped out at me, but I'd be willing to bet more of it is off too.

There are several games that have really nice comprehensive lists like that (or larger) which are extremely handy to have for hammering out custom settings, but unfortunately it looks like that one is rather inaccurate, which in turn kind of defeats the purpose of using it. I'm all for the idea though, if the design guys want to hammer a better one out.
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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 8:50PM #5
Kubernes
Date Joined: Oct 22, 2011
Posts: 57
There really are not 'time periods' in D&D. I can really see drastically different equipment lists for the different campaigns (Neverwinter, Darksun, etc) though.
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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 8:56PM #6
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,557

Jul 3, 2012 -- 8:50PM, Kubernes wrote:

There really are not 'time periods' in D&D. I can really see drastically different equipment lists for the different campaigns (Neverwinter, Darksun, etc) though.




Yeah, this.  Any assumptions that a D&D timeline, what with the magic and monsters and multiple races and such would, in any way, mirror RL history are ridiculous.

Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 8:59PM #7
Gurka
Date Joined: Jun 23, 2012
Posts: 309

Jul 3, 2012 -- 8:50PM, Kubernes wrote:

There really are not 'time periods' in D&D. I can really see drastically different equipment lists for the different campaigns (Neverwinter, Darksun, etc) though.




But why aren't there? D&D has a history. Any setting in D&D has it's own separate history. Why make it so much more difficult to utilize those historical settings, or even more earthlike settings, that you see in fiction quite frequently.

Putting stuff like that on the table is great because if they have the tools built into the game to do it, I (and anybody else out there) can use THIS system to play whatever fantasy setting they want. If they tie the system to the setting or settings that are "common" to D&D (Neverwinter, Eberon, Dragonlance, etc), then if I want to play a game in the setting of some other fiction (Richard Morgan, George R. R. Martin, Patrick Rothfuss, Jacqueline Carey, or whoever), then it makes it a lot easier to do so.

If the "modularity" of the game turns out as good as they're propping it up to be, then that will be an option. It seemed to me that 4e in particular didn't cater well to that, and led myself and others I know to use other game systems for any kind of non-baked-in settings.

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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 9:11PM #8
Gurka
Date Joined: Jun 23, 2012
Posts: 309

Jul 3, 2012 -- 8:56PM, Salla wrote:

Jul 3, 2012 -- 8:50PM, Kubernes wrote:

There really are not 'time periods' in D&D. I can really see drastically different equipment lists for the different campaigns (Neverwinter, Darksun, etc) though.




Yeah, this.  Any assumptions that a D&D timeline, what with the magic and monsters and multiple races and such would, in any way, mirror RL history are ridiculous.




In large part you're right, but there would still be more socially and technologically advanced cultures even in D&D. To assume that EVERY nation and EVERY culture in D&D is equally developed seems a bit odd, even in a land of magic and monsters.

The history and development of technology in most any D&D setting wouldn't mirror actual history directly, but an accurate understanding of how and when things were developed historically gives you a point of reference. Heck, there are things that were developed in OUR history which given the inclusion of magic and some of the "mythical" materials in D&D (Adamantine, Mithril, etc) that could very well have advanced technology (such as Da Vinci's flying machine). Likewise if magic is particularly common, then it could have severely retarded the advance of technology by simply making many mundane advancements unnecessary.

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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 9:18PM #9
pauldanielj2
Date Joined: Jul 17, 2008
Posts: 178
It's an interesting concept, but there are some assumptions built into it. Consider the impact of campaign conceits:

 - In a world where metal is scarce, the cultures may be advanced enough in theory to have plate armor, but in practice without sufficient metal it's unlikely that would have ever developed
 - In a world where magic use is commonplace, armor might be seen as largely irrelevant as a defense mechanism 
 - The lower the level of weapon and armor technology, the more relatively powerful magic becomes; conversely, as firearms and steam engines appear magic is less significant
 - In a world of constant warfare, weapon and armor technology would likely develop faster; conversely in a world populated by pacifists such technology could be limited

I'm sure you could go on and on, but the question is to what extent you want your campaign to correspond to real cultural and technological developments. 


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13 months ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 9:24PM #10
Seerow
Date Joined: Nov 7, 2005
Posts: 2,592

 - In a world where magic use is commonplace, armor might be seen as largely irrelevant as a defense mechanism




Actually, in a commonplace magic world, I would expect some form of mundane defense to magic to be developed eventually. I'm surprised something like this hasn't come up in Eberron. But personally, I would love to see a mundane item that works like armor against spells. 


By that I mean a defense thats bonus depends on your stat. In 3.5, how much armor bonus you got depended on what your stat was. If you have 30 dex, there's no sense in wearing full plate, you want to go with padded armor, or a Mithril Chain Shirt of Nimbleness or something. Similarly, if you have 10 dex, you should be wearing the heaviest armor you have proficiency with, to keep your AC on par.

The great thing about that system was that no matter what dex value you had, your AC generally added up to the same thing, which made armor values (at least at low levels) predictable. If we could get something like that for spells/NADs then I'd be pretty happy, because it lets the Fighter maintain some form of defense against Domination, even if his wisdom isn't all that great.

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