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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 5:22AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Mention has been made of bring facing in to next...
Yes - I am responding to previous concepts of facing but really flanking makes more sense, facing is too momentary without extenuating factors (for instance suprise) that its benefit seems like it ought to be beneath the radar.
How long does it take to switch your orientation in response to an enemy you are aware of being within threat reach? Unless your mobility is somehow impaired by being part of a shield wall for instance (in which case your defense has actually been enhanced), this is not something likely to affect you much.
If you are already engaged with them well this might as well be no time at all, adjusting facing is a standard part of looking for openings. The opposite is true in a sense if you can either force the enemy in to a position so they cant adjust there position easily by say surrounding them (flanking by another name really) then you can gain advantage from it.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 5:50AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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Niether flanking or facing are particulary easy to adjudicate without a grid, so I'm assuming that if either are being used, its on the battle map.
You could argue the logic behind flanking or facing all day long and nobody would technically be wrong. There's a lot going on in each six or so seconds a combat round represents and No combat system can accuratly parse everything that takes place, so what ever system you use relies on fair amount of abstraction .
That being said I'm in favor of flanking simply because its less tedious to keep track of round to round. I can't speak to every game, but at my table we use a wide variety of minatures and tokens to represent PC's and monster, soem don't have a clear facing, some minatures are a bit akward in size, (ie a lot of dragon minis take up way more spce then they should, tuck those wings in please) If we're assuming mass combats to the tune of twenty or so combatants, determing where each one is pointing will only slow down gameplay which is something DDN wants to avoid.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 6:38AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Flanking could be collapsed to how many allies are engaged with a particular enemy.... and not necessarily gridded.
That being said I'm in favor of flanking simply because its less tedious to keep track of round to round. I can't speak to every game, but at my table we use a wide variety of minatures and tokens to represent PC's and monster, soem don't have a clear facing, some minatures are a bit akward in size, (ie a lot of dragon minis take up way more spce then they should, tuck those wings in please) If we're assuming mass combats to the tune of twenty or so combatants, determing where each one is pointing will only slow down gameplay which is something DDN wants to avoid.
To my mind you just added more fuel on the anti facing fire.
What does facing gain? I think we need some proponent... shielded vs open side? That presumes both passive use of the shield and that facing is constant (or hindered) which doesnt seem really appropriate either.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 6:42AM
#4
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I have never played a game with facing, I would like to hear the pros to it as well.
I would imagine Facing working in Theater of the Mind better than Flanking, but not much better.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 6:42AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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I don't think that flanking or facing is too difficult without a grid. If x is attacking y, z should be able to attack from behind unless y is against a wall or some other object that is large enough. Without a grid, you could even have the PC who wants to attack from behind roll a DEX check to see if he can get into position. (DC 10 if you want it to be easier....DC 15 if you want it to be more difficult).
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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 6:45AM
#6
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Yeah, I'm not going to advocate for facing either. 4e's flanking rule seemed to pretty much cover that ground nicely if you ask me. If you want to get tediously picky, well, there could be situations where some benefit could exist for attacking from a specific direction. For example an enemy with a large shield might be less protected from missile fire directed at it from some other direction. 4e doesn't explicitly deal with this kind of situation, but it is also a rather rare corner-case. I don't see the real benefit in introducing a complex accounting system like facing just to cover that kind of rare situation. If it is really important to a specific situation then the DM can always provide advantage (IE the rogue sneaks around behind the hobgoblins' shield wall, he could get advantage for that).
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 7:16AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2005
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To me facing is needed for non combat for the most part. It's important for sneaking and with such things as silence it makes the direction someone is facing more important.
The only time I would worry about it so much in combat would be for a sneaking character that hasn't entered the fray. Once they do their first attack facing no longer will apply even if they hide again because now they know he is there even if they can't see him.
I can't see myself worrying about shield bonuses only from the front and left sides, and what have you.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 26, 2012 - 8:06AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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Niether flanking or facing are particulary easy to adjudicate without a grid, so I'm assuming that if either are being used, its on the battle map.
You could argue the logic behind flanking or facing all day long and nobody would technically be wrong. There's a lot going on in each six or so seconds a combat round represents and No combat system can accuratly parse everything that takes place, so what ever system you use relies on fair amount of abstraction .
That being said I'm in favor of flanking simply because its less tedious to keep track of round to round. I can't speak to every game, but at my table we use a wide variety of minatures and tokens to represent PC's and monster, soem don't have a clear facing, some minatures are a bit akward in size, (ie a lot of dragon minis take up way more spce then they should, tuck those wings in please) If we're assuming mass combats to the tune of twenty or so combatants, determing where each one is pointing will only slow down gameplay which is something DDN wants to avoid.
outnumbering or isolated could be the variety for no grid combat.
when you have no alies close by and are attacked by 2 or more oponents in melee
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13 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 12:31PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
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Personally, I think facing and flanking are capable of coexisting and granting the same or similar effects.
Playtest or get off the playtest boards.
---
I want justice for the voice that can't be heard
Vindication for every suffering and hurt
Let retribution hold dominion over earth
--Nemesis, VNV Nation
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13 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 12:33PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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Flanking is an abstracted system for facing. Nothing more, and nothing less.
That's the reason why flanking requires you to be directly across from the flanker, instead of just both adjacent to the same enemy.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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