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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 4:09PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2007
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During our playtest sessions the wizard was not balanced he was by far the weakest class. The sleep spell that some people mentioned was supposed to end encounters proved to be useless because it only works on monsters that have less than 10 hit points and evidently even hobgoblins have more than this. Our party wizard used the sleep spell once in a room full of Hobgoblins and a bugbear (if I recall correctly) thinking cool this will drop a decent amount, but no one dropped and the penalty to movement the spell gave meant nothing considering the close quarters of the Caves of Chaos that we played through....in an outdoor environment the spell MIGHT prove more useful.
Likewise, we didn't see Ray of Frost being this huge broken spell I see people talking about in threads. Yes, it allowed the wizard to lock down a single opponent but so what? 1) There were multiple opponents to face so locking down one made very little difference if any at all that we saw 2) people also had ranged weapons so yes someone who got locked down might not be able to move but they could still shoot (the wizard avoided locking down range targets except one dude who had a spear....and when it hit it hurt too).
So, again I don't see the 5E wizard as being this awesome class, it had absolutely no element of battlefield control that wizards of other editions namely 3rd and 4th had, and pretty much he was just a magic missile sniper. Far from broken.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 4:40PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2007
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The wizard is one of the weakest classes at low levels. At high levels is still made of glass compared to other classes. So if the wizard is not super powerful at high level (quadratic) why will someone play wizards if you virtually will be worse than the other classes? Even if it is as good as the other at high level why should I be worst at first just to be the same at the end?
Oh no! Wizards aren't ridiculously over powered! They can't do everything every other class can do but better. They don't outshine every other character. Whole adventures no longer have to be designed SOLELY around them. They can no longer derail entire story lines. Other classes can actually DO things.
Whatever will we do?
Oh wait... I know. Groups can actually have fun now with each player contributing equally.
Because you like something, it does not mean it is good.
Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus.
Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 5:40PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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When I first played 1e as a teen, we just played characters for the feel depending on how we wanted to shape our in game persona. We were far from power gamers, and we had fun cooperating and figuring out puzzles or overcoming obstacles.
Having knowledge of enemies, situations, magic, lore, etc. is pretty interesting in itself if you like that kind of stuff. This in-game knowledge will make the wizard the type of character some people would want to play.
The cantrips are not so bad. Magic missle is terrific at lower levels, and if it scales, even better. Ray of frost could really help neutrolize a dangerous foe.
I don't love shield as a spell. It seems a waste of a spell slot. It should at least grant +4 AC (even then, may not be worth taking). A longer term, Mage Armor might be a better choice.
I also think sleep is too weak if it can only affect 10 hp or less.
The possibility of slinging arc-lightning, fireball and other spells later (even perhaps more powerful sleep spells if they scale) will make the wizard more attractive.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 6:05PM
#24
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It must be hard for designers to balance a class when some people cry that it's too powerful while others cry it's too weak.
Maybe 5th edition can have an Entitled Background that certain players can choose for their characters so their characters is always the best at everything. I think that could help the balance issue some are having.
Actually that's a good idea. Then people that actually want a more balanced game can just not take that background! Good work!
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 6:15PM
#25
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My main gripe with the wizard as presented in the playtest is it is completely defined by their spells. I'd rather they have more features than "I cast spells". If they add specializations for wizards akin to cleric domains, then I'd be pretty happy. Let Abjurers get some better form of Mage Armor/Shield, or Evokers get a better minor damage spell, etc. If they allowed for non-school specializations (such as elemental), I'd be very pleased.
I realize this could be accomplished via themes, but I would rather see it happen in the class itself.
Hey! I know! Each type of magic user could have a different sort of implement and like they could do a different thing with it. Yeah, that would work! 
Maybe 5th edition can have an Entitled Background that certain players can choose for their characters so their characters is always the best at everything. I think that could help the balance issue some are having.
 
Aye, I vote +1 'Funny' on that one, now where are my mod points???
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 6:20PM
#26
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During our playtest sessions the wizard was not balanced he was by far the weakest class. The sleep spell that some people mentioned was supposed to end encounters proved to be useless because it only works on monsters that have less than 10 hit points and evidently even hobgoblins have more than this. Our party wizard used the sleep spell once in a room full of Hobgoblins and a bugbear (if I recall correctly) thinking cool this will drop a decent amount, but no one dropped and the penalty to movement the spell gave meant nothing considering the close quarters of the Caves of Chaos that we played through....in an outdoor environment the spell MIGHT prove more useful.
Likewise, we didn't see Ray of Frost being this huge broken spell I see people talking about in threads. Yes, it allowed the wizard to lock down a single opponent but so what? 1) There were multiple opponents to face so locking down one made very little difference if any at all that we saw 2) people also had ranged weapons so yes someone who got locked down might not be able to move but they could still shoot (the wizard avoided locking down range targets except one dude who had a spear....and when it hit it hurt too).
So, again I don't see the 5E wizard as being this awesome class, it had absolutely no element of battlefield control that wizards of other editions namely 3rd and 4th had, and pretty much he was just a magic missile sniper. Far from broken.
He's got as much control as your average 4e level 1 wizard. A spell that stops an enemy dead in its tracks for basically the whole fight, another one that slows a potentially large mass of enemies for basically the whole fight, and then charm person, etc, which are quite useful in a variety of ways, and finally magic missile for those moments when all else fails.
I think it might be a TAD early in the game to declare that wizard is worthless, especially when we haven't even seen a single level 3 spell yet.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 6:40PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2007
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The wizard is one of the weakest classes at low levels. At high levels is still made of glass compared to other classes. So if the wizard is not super powerful at high level (quadratic) why will someone play wizards if you virtually will be worse than the other classes? Even if it is as good as the other at high level why should I be worst at first just to be the same at the end?
Oh no! Wizards aren't ridiculously over powered! They can't do everything every other class can do but better. They don't outshine every other character. Whole adventures no longer have to be designed SOLELY around them. They can no longer derail entire story lines. Other classes can actually DO things.
Whatever will we do?
Oh wait... I know. Groups can actually have fun now with each player contributing equally.
Never, NEVER had a game in any edition of dnd where the wizard player ruined the fun for every one else. It just never happened. The power gamers I ran across usually did weried stuff, mixing classes, prestige classes, and feats from who knows what supplement, and spaming various magic items. Never had anything to do with base wizard, base druid, etc.
That being said, I think the new wizard has potential. He essentailly casts spells similar to pre 4th ed, but has at will spells thrown in so you are actually not limited to participating in a number of fighters per day equal to your spell slot allotment. that is cool. Magic missle will start to be pretty cool at higher levels, and spells like arch lighting and mirror image look really cool. Ray of frost isnt broken, but its not over powered either. Burning hands probably needs to do more than 2d4, that is pretty weak, and won't do much good against anything other than kobolds and goblins. It sounds cool but, if mathmatically it is not a very effective daily power, then, well, thats not cool. (I actually thought it did 4d6 for some reasom, and when the party was fighting orcs, the wizard had casted that spell and only dropped half the orcs because of relfex saves. Then, I was nice and let her say she preped a second one, and after a second casting, there were still enough orcs left alive that managed to kill her with their charging attack bonus. Now that I see it only does 2d4 well, that means that probably not even with two castings she would have been hard pressed to kill more than a 2 or 3 orcs. For a spell that has to be preped ahead of time with limited use per day, and only useful in certain situations (such as not blasting your own friends who will almost allways be in your area of effect), this is pretty weak compaired to the fighters at will 2d6+7. Even as a softining up spell, its weak as the fighter will kill most of the orcs with one blow regardless of whether or not they were hurt. ).
So, some spells look good, others need tweaking. And for all the whining about weried loop holes in spells, a druid= a party of 50 bears, I can kill a balor with rope trick, a 15th level mage with force cage is to strong, I can defeat every single encounter in a dungeon with sleep, etc....alot of that can be fixed by paying closer attention to what all these spells really do, play testing, controlling how spells scale, etc. Point is, just because some one thinks the mage is a little soft in power dosnt automatically mean they want a super powerful mage to ruin every one's fun. In fact, we should pay extra close attention to the wizard as this is probably one of the toughest classes to get the power level right.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 6:56PM
#28
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The sleep spell that some people mentioned was supposed to end encounters proved to be useless because it only works on monsters that have less than 10 hit points and evidently even hobgoblins have more than this.
Actually, the 10 HP limit is rather brilliant. If monsters have more than 10 HP, then the party actually gets to contribute by whittling the enemy down so the wizard can sleep them all. If every party member attacks different enemies, then they should all get whittled down where the wizard can sleep them. Heck, the hobgoblins you mention only have 11 HPs. If the fighter misses the Hobgoblin, the damage on a miss mechanic makes that hobgoblin sleepable. Now consider the possibilies of even low-damage ranged attacks.
However, if you think the wizard is too limited, as I'm sure a lot of people accustomed to quadratic god-wizards do, just double, triple, pentuple, or flat out remove the HP limit.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 7:04PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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The sleep spell that some people mentioned was supposed to end encounters proved to be useless because it only works on monsters that have less than 10 hit points and evidently even hobgoblins have more than this.
Actually, the 10 HP limit is rather brilliant. If monsters have more than 10 HP, then the party actually gets to contribute by whittling the enemy down so the wizard can sleep them all. If every party member attacks different enemies, then they should all get whittled down where the wizard can sleep them. Heck, the hobgoblins you mention only have 11 HPs. If the fighter misses the Hobgoblin, the damage on a miss mechanic makes that hobgoblin sleepable. Now consider the possibilies of even low-damage ranged attacks.
However, if you think the wizard is too limited, as I'm sure a lot of people accustomed to quadratic god-wizards do, just double, triple, pentuple, or flat out remove the HP limit.
If it scaled up a bit I'd like the sleep spell more. It is the type of spell that is a cool way to knock out sucker foes that aren't a real threat to the party. Something low end like it effect 10HP +1 for every 5 levels of the wizard. Basically at a certain level where people are casually defeating a threat it should have the potential to sleep them. Still I do like the HP limit mechanic on it. And depending on how saves work at higher levels it may be a great idea for all save or else/die effects in the game.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 21, 2012 - 7:09PM
#30
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The sleep spell that some people mentioned was supposed to end encounters proved to be useless because it only works on monsters that have less than 10 hit points and evidently even hobgoblins have more than this.
Actually, the 10 HP limit is rather brilliant. If monsters have more than 10 HP, then the party actually gets to contribute by whittling the enemy down so the wizard can sleep them all. If every party member attacks different enemies, then they should all get whittled down where the wizard can sleep them. Heck, the hobgoblins you mention only have 11 HPs. If the fighter misses the Hobgoblin, the damage on a miss mechanic makes that hobgoblin sleepable. Now consider the possibilies of even low-damage ranged attacks.
However, if you think the wizard is too limited, as I'm sure a lot of people accustomed to quadratic god-wizards do, just double, triple, pentuple, or flat out remove the HP limit.
If it scaled up a bit I'd like the sleep spell more. It is the type of spell that is a cool way to knock out sucker foes that aren't a real threat to the party. Something low end like it effect 10HP +1 for every 5 levels of the wizard. Basically at a certain level where people are casually defeating a threat it should have the potential to sleep them. Still I do like the HP limit mechanic on it. And depending on how saves work at higher levels it may be a great idea for all save or else/die effects in the game.
Why scale up with level? That's the whole quadratic problem that absolutely needs to die. A more powerful effect should require a more powerful spell slot. I mean, what if you could just prep it in a lvl 2 slot and, by doing so, bump up the HP limit from 10 to 20?
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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