|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 6:36AM
#131
|
|
|
i'm pretty sure one of the newer blog post by Bruce cordell indicates Themes give out feats at a rate of one every uneven level:
"As earlier noted, Seren also has the Magic User theme. A theme reflects the manner in which she (and other characters) interact with the world. So as she gains experience and knowledge, her theme grows with her, adding to her expertise over time. As the rules iteration currently stands, a theme is how a character gains feats. Like earlier editions, feats offered by a theme come at specified levels. Currently, we’ve set the default for feat acquisition at character levels 1, 3, 5, and so on. Which means that Seren, when portrayed as a 5th-level D&D character, has three feats. Her 1st-level feat gives her two extra minor spells, her 3rd-level feat gives her a familiar (Seren likes ravens), and her 5th-level feat gives her a flourish with a favorite spell. In Seren’s case, it’s fireball, baby!"
now, whether the 5th level fireball is because there's a feat that lets you cherry pick spells or a byproduct of the "magic user" theme is still unclear, as it stands we know how feats are currently gained and it's tied to themes.
it also seems that themes might simply end up being a full-package of pre-planned feats rather then simply starting feats as well backgrounds each providing a singular trait:
"Skills (and one trait) are provided in a story package called background, and feats (and a level progression) are provided in a story package called theme."
it also seems that while you can pick feats as you level the game might, by default, have you pick the entire feat progression pre-game then "lock" you in your theme/package (yes i know you Rule Derp it away, but the current iteration still makes some assumptions):
"The guidelines we’d provide for such a total customization option would tell you to encourage your players to create a background that matched the skills they chose, and come up with a theme to explain the feats" since, as previously mentionned, the feats offered come at a specified level.
If they locked you into a theme for your entire career, I'd want to have a meaningful choice at each level. For example to be able to choose between cleave and improved weapon specialization at level 3, otherwise it would be a deal breaker. No meaningful choice at level up...
They've said quite often, and even indirectly in the quote you used, that you get to pick your own feats and skills, and backround features. Themes and backrounds are prepackaged sets of skills, backround features, and feats allowing for fast and/or simple character creation if desired. But if you just want get down and nasty with your character creation, it will EXPLICITLY (not as a houserule) be an option to just manually pick feats skills and backround features. That's been stated in just about every chat and interview where the subject has come up.
Somewhere, I actually believe it's in that same AMA, they actually refer to taking multiple sequential themes. The particular example given was a wizard starting the the M-U theme and then at 6th level chosing a second theme where the examples given represented specialization in a particular school of magic. I'm just reporting this, I don't know if this is tenative or definite feature.
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 6:43AM
#132
|
|
|
Mearls has been cursed by his corporate overlords to go forward and backwards at the same time.
Keep this in mind when we all hate him about a year from now.
You definately have a point here. I woldn't take Mike's job right now for all the tea in China. Whatever my opinions and thoughts on what his team has produced thus far, I do sympathize...but that only goes so far.
-Polaris
Generally speaking Mearls could completely ignore what his overlords said to do, but in order to keep his job whatever he did would need to be a financial success...
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 6:48AM
#133
|
Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2004
|
i'm pretty sure one of the newer blog post by Bruce cordell indicates Themes give out feats at a rate of one every uneven level:
"As earlier noted, Seren also has the Magic User theme. A theme reflects the manner in which she (and other characters) interact with the world. So as she gains experience and knowledge, her theme grows with her, adding to her expertise over time. As the rules iteration currently stands, a theme is how a character gains feats. Like earlier editions, feats offered by a theme come at specified levels. Currently, we’ve set the default for feat acquisition at character levels 1, 3, 5, and so on. Which means that Seren, when portrayed as a 5th-level D&D character, has three feats. Her 1st-level feat gives her two extra minor spells, her 3rd-level feat gives her a familiar (Seren likes ravens), and her 5th-level feat gives her a flourish with a favorite spell. In Seren’s case, it’s fireball, baby!"
now, whether the 5th level fireball is because there's a feat that lets you cherry pick spells or a byproduct of the "magic user" theme is still unclear, as it stands we know how feats are currently gained and it's tied to themes.
it also seems that themes might simply end up being a full-package of pre-planned feats rather then simply starting feats as well backgrounds each providing a singular trait:
"Skills (and one trait) are provided in a story package called background, and feats (and a level progression) are provided in a story package called theme."
it also seems that while you can pick feats as you level the game might, by default, have you pick the entire feat progression pre-game then "lock" you in your theme/package (yes i know you Rule Derp it away, but the current iteration still makes some assumptions):
"The guidelines we’d provide for such a total customization option would tell you to encourage your players to create a background that matched the skills they chose, and come up with a theme to explain the feats" since, as previously mentionned, the feats offered come at a specified level.
If they locked you into a theme for your entire career, I'd want to have a meaningful choice at each level. For example to be able to choose between cleave and improved weapon specialization at level 3, otherwise it would be a deal breaker. No meaningful choice at level up...
I'm hoping that on the even levels you gain a (choice of) class ability but we'll have to see. It's hard to know what is just loose use of language but they have previously mentioned that sneak attack would be one of the choices available to rogues i.e. you won't have to take it every level like the playtest character. They have mentioned in other interviews that themes come in 5 level packages. At that stage you decide whether to pick an advanced theme (which presumably builds on top of the existing themes or to take another starting theme.
They are suggesting that if you choose to depart from the pre-built themes that you string together the feats you want in a custom theme. This is nice becuase it is discouraging purely random feat selection in favour of telling your character's story. However, they haven't banned random selection; Power gamers can still choose what they like. Themes are designed to prevent more casual gamers being put off by the large number of feat combinations available.
I agree totally that it will be more fun if players get a choice of several suggested feats as part of their themes. It would also make sense if they adjust themes on DDI as more feats come out, adding new feats to the original themes' lists to keep them fresh. They have also said that combat styles will allow acces to suites of powers/manouevres. Wizard feats allow access to attack spells so if the same is true of martial feats, this would also suggest that your feat choice is not set in stone at each level. Finally, Essentials characters had the choice of two out of several possible stances. This again suggests that they are aware that choice is important to players when building their PCs.
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 6:51AM
#134
|
|
|
I think there are some people in this thread who are defining what a thing is made for by what its design largely centers around, and some other people in this thread defining what a thing is made for by what they believe(rightly or wrongly) that most of its users use it for.
The thing is, the two are one and the same the vast majority of the time, which is what many people fail to recognize. Oftentimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.
Some people will deny this with every fiber of their being regardless of how true it is and always has been, and will never listen to arguments to the contrary, and will present those who state the truth as 2D caricatures because that makes them easier to dismiss.
Occams' Razor - It is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.
Your post should read "Often times the simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions is the correct one."
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 6:56AM
#135
|
|
|
Gimme an example, Polaris, of where a rules module gives you the rule to cover a situation, and you still have to use fiat to determine the result of that situation.
edit: Just conceptually, to explain how it works. Because it looks to me like you're saying "When rules replace fiat, you still have to use fiat". Which seems strange to me.
Did you read some of the Sirlin links in that T-D posted in another thread. Basically when you try to bolt on rules when the core is determined by Fiat only, then there is no overall system or logic to how the rules should fit together and you get a mess. That's the difference between a collection of ad-hoc rules (which to be fair most early TRPGs were) which often required DM Fiat anyways (AND were complicated) and simple and easy to understand rules systems.
-Polaris
I know what they want. Here is an example:
Say the core is DM pick an ability and a DC and make the player roll at or higher than the DC or any improvised action.
Say the rules module grants a player a power "Action - You may attack a prone target adjacent to you and automatically Deal maximum damage minus any bonuses you are normally given."
I see a lot of players improvising ways to knock targets prone so they get the equivalent of low powered critical hits. Some DMs will disallow this, others will give a reasonable roll to keep it in line, others will allow the players to go wild.
Its the equivalent of saying "Hey DM can I just auto crit every other round?" and waiting to see if the DM 'allows' it...
Throw in a module that has weapons in the heavy category get an extra damage die rolled on a critical hit and your asking for trouble...
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 7:13AM
#136
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
What a shock. Lots of direct, clear answers, straight from the horse's mouth, and people respond by saying "I don't believe you." I found the link quite interesting. It covered many of my remaining concerns.
Moderated by
ORC_Opal
on Jun 16, 2012 - 01:19PM
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 7:20AM
#137
|
Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
|
Themes only give one ability per feat. This means that a level 20 fighter is capped at 10 maneuvers, ever. But a Cleric could get those same 10 maneuvers, and also have his spells. Someone please explain to me how this helps the caster dominance problem?
Well, don't forget the two themes thing the fighter has going for him, doubling his potential manuvers.
diden't read the whole tread yet replying to a early post
I think it was said somwhere that when you get manuvers trough a theme you get 3 offerd and have to chose 1.
If this is the case i might see somthing like the folowing instead of the 2 theme thing.
fighter:
if your alouwed to pick martial manuvers you chose 2 instead of 1, your still limited in how many times you can use the manuver.
example you can chose between 3 abilities A B and C all are once a day abilities.
you pick A and B, so once per day you can use ability A or B
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 7:31AM
#138
|
Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2004
|
I'd rather not have the fighter features lock them into particular themes. That's not an especially 'modular' way to do things.
In general, I like some of the things that were said, but I view them with skepticism. For instance, he says he understands a rhobust underlying math is important and helpful, but the math behind monsters as previewed is "spit ball it, and let the DM sort it out". Not from this Q&A set, but in a similar vein, he talks about the using 'bounded accuracy, but then there are half a dozen spells and class features and items in the playtest offering accuracy or AC bonuses, with the implication of even greater bonuses to come, which takes the entire point of bounded accuracy and tosses it out the window.
There are a lot of such cases where the stated design goals or theories of D&D Next seem directly contradicted by the actual design that seems to be going into place.
So while his answers might seem encouraging, I'm going to wait until I actually see how some of this is being put into practice in later playtests before I allow myself to actually be encouraged.
Necromancy: Friendship is MagicSpoiler:
Show
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 8:00AM
#139
|
Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2004
|
It's the simplest thing to say that any bonuses from whatever source can stack but are limited to a maximum of +2 or +3 or 1/4 of your level rounded up or whatever and bounded accuracy is preserved. They've suggested that fighter attack rolls will increase (but not by level 3 from what we've seen so the highest variation could be +1 every 4 levels for +5 at level 20). Bounded accuracy doesn't mean no bonuses at all, just within restricted parameters
|
|
|
|
12 months ago ::
Jun 16, 2012 - 8:39AM
#140
|
Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2004
|
Sure sure, we don't know what high level looks like. But that's just it, we don't know, and the plethora of bonuses already available at levels 1-3 aren't promising for a system that's trying to keep things in check all the way to level 10 or 20 or 30. They already seem far too willing to throw in bonuses to hit like candy, whether from class features or spells or items. They might reign it in, but it's not looking promising now. And if they try to do bounded accuracy without reigning in the accuracy bonus candy, then their math isn't working and won't work.
I'd love to see a high level play test, but at the moment I fear the play tests for 5e will be a lot like those for 4e and 3e, a lot of attention to low level, and then higher levels just thrown on willy nilly.
Necromancy: Friendship is MagicSpoiler:
Show
|
|
|
