The true power of the Wizard is not in dealing damage.
That said, I do agree that some balance exists because both classes can contribute in fun and interesting ways.
...just my 2cp
My Paladin: Hey mage, why are you always reading that book?
Party Wizard: This tome contains a wealth of knowledge, sir knight.
My Paladin: Well if tomes contain knowledge, knowledge is power, power corrupts, and corruption is evil...than the more you read the more evil you become! Quickly everyone, get her!
The true power of the Wizard is not in dealing damage. That said, I do agree that some balance exists because both classes can contribute in fun and interesting ways. ...just my 2cp
Agree, for example in PF RPG an 8th level Wizard that hits you with a fireball will average 14 damage if you make your reflex save 28 damage if you fail, 0 damage if you save with evasion, and the save DC is usually arouind DC 16. And there are numerous ways to stop them from casting, another little known fact by people who played AD&D if you played by RAW it was very difficult to get spells off, there were casting times in segments and any amount of damage "fizzled" your spells.
So allegedly 3.5e had Wizards be the most powerful class ever. I never played 3.5e but I've heard that charge levelled at clerics and druids instead of Wizards. I guess casters were a step above the Rogue and Fighter.
I do play Pathfinder however. It keeps the Vancian system and yet somehow the Wizard doesn't dominate the fights.
You play with poor caster players then.
A lot of people complaining about the Wizard class point to 4th ed as an example of a system where Wizards were much more inline with the other classes. The only problem is, they weren't. They were "controllers". They didn't deal any damage, they didn't heal players. They simply "controlled" the battlefield. With how long battle takes in 4th ed it quickly becomes obvious that the Wizard isn't contributing to the enjoyment of the game. It might be keeping a group of monsters at bay until the players can get round to them, but the Cleric does so much healing it's often unnecessary. All the Wizard is doing is prolonging an already painfully long fight. Everyone would rather the Wizard simply help everyone else actually kill the monsters so we can get on to the next fight sooner and hopefully finish the adventure within the next 6 months.
See above. A wizard doing his control roll was insanely important in large battles.
Level 1 Damage Output
Fighter: Does 14 damage on average. On a miss it does 7 damage.
Cleric of Moradin: Does 7.5 damage on average. If he doesn't use all his slots on healing he'll get to do an extra 1d6 for an entire hour, bringing up his damage output to 11 damage on average per round.
Cleric of Pelor: 8.5 damage on average. Once a day the Cleric can spend half his spell slots dealing 18 damage against a single enemy.
Rogue: 6.5 damage on average. The poor, poor rogue. I sure feel sorry for any 4th ed players who pick the Rogue because everyone knows Rogues do so much damage.
3 on a miss, not 7. He deals ability modifier damage on a miss so 3 (or 1 with a bow)
The uber powerful Wizard? Why:
He can do a whole 3.5 damage guaranteed on his turn (half of what the fighter deals on a miss).
He can do 7.5 damage every turn. If he hits. This is a whole 0.5 damage extra then the Fighter gets to deal at a minimum. Or it's 53% of the damage a fighter does assuming both targets hit and deal average damage.
Or he can once a day (3 times a day if he does nothing else) deal 8 damage to enemies within a particular cluster. When you're facing a hoarde of low level monsters that will clear them out, assuming they don't make the dexterity save of course. The same monsters that the fighter was guaranteed to kill whenever he got around to it.
He can put a whole cluster of enemies to sleep assuming they fail the wisdom save. But again, only if they're low level mooks that the fighter can autokill on his turn. And he can only do this 3 times a day, assuming he does nothing else that day except spam at wills.
I haven't seen any change from 4th ed at all. The Wizard is still geared towards killing minions (something the Warlock could do much more effectively and in a single round) while pretty much every single other class can outdamage the Wizard in any given round.
I know, everyone knows that Wizards take a while to scale up. Let's check the Wizard out at 3rd level, the highest level we have for the playtest.
Or you know he can lock the single biggest mook in place to let the rest the party deal with the mooks.
And remember Save or Die is back, which means mid-high level wizards will mow through the opposition. While still maintaing spells to have advantage in non-combat (Charm person for instance).
The Wizards at-wills are as follows:
Shocking Grasp is still at 7.5 damage. That hasn't changed at all. Bugger.
Magic Missile. The underperforming at will. Why it scales with level. Now it can finally do 7 damage, why... that's actually the same amount of damage as the level 1 fighter deals on a miss. Fine.
And a fighter without reaving is out distanced in damage by the wizard. by magic missile and its auto-hit damage. Recall again, this is without all the spells, but with a clear indication of what happens with the fighter.
I know, the Wizard has level 2 spells now. Surely those will be overpowered to warrant a 37 page thread bemoaning the return of the overpowered Wizard. Let's see:
Arc Lightning. His one damaging spell for level 2 that he'll get to do a whole 2 times a day. Why I.. have to make an attack roll. Alright, that's not so bad. I get to deal can deal 17 damage on a hit. (8.5 on a miss) That's 2 extra points then a level 1 fighter (or 1.5 extra points on a miss). But unlike the lowly fighter, I get a second attack dealing an extra 10 points of damage if I hit. That's a whooping 27 damage in 1 turn. And I get to do that twice a day. Surely I'll dominate the combats and no-one else will get a chance to contribute meaningfully.
Let's see what the rest of the mooks that I call my adventuring party get. They can't be as powerful as me:
Rogue. Good old Rogue who was barely able to do any damage at all. Why he gets to now deal 18 damage every second round. Or 9 damage every round. Why... That's actually more than my at-wills. How the heck is the Rogue outdamaging a Wizard? Well at least I get to deal 27 damage twice a day. The Rogue can't do that!
Cleric of Pelor. He's still dealing, well, the same amount of damage. He still beats my at-wills, but at least I get to deal 27 damage twice a day. The Cleric of Pelor can't do that!
Cleric of Moradin. Why... now he can do 13 damage 3 times a day? And he gets to do the extra 5.5 damage retroactively guaranteed that he never misses it? Well that's only 39 damage a day, I'm getting to do 54, so clearly I'm better. Even if I do have to make 2 attack rolls to deal that much damage.
Fighter. The lowly fighter. The character that will be overshadowed by my greatness. At level 1 you might have outdamaged me, but I'm powerful now. I'm level 3. I get to deal 27 damage twice a day. What do you have to say for yourself?
You can deal 15 damage at will? 8 on a miss? I don't care if that beats my at-wills. I get to deal 27 damage twice a day. Do you know how much that is? That's 54 damage a day. And I'll just demand we have a rest after my 2 spells are wiped and who cares about the plot? I'll outshine you any day of the week.
What's that? You get to make 2 attacks in 1 round and you can do that twice a day? Your total damage output for those two rounds is 30 per round or 60 in total? And you also get to make an additional attack for free if you actually manage to kill someone on your turn? And you can do that unlimited times a day.
How is this possible? I'm the Wizard. I can outdamage everyone in the party. Everyone knows that. There's a 37 page thread going on at great length about this. I'll just rest every 2 fights. Wait, that means your daily abilities get reset as well? The daily abilities that outdamage me by 6 points?
Damn you fighter! Damn you to the Nine Pits of Hell. I was told you would stand in my shadow. How dare you be as competent as me when I'm novaing for the day. It's my only chance to be impressive!
In Conclusion
I feel that the fighter and Wizard are evenly matched. The poor Rogue is outdamaged by everyone in the party. I'd be willing to play the Rogue, as at least I get to do cool stuff and be supersneaky and have twice as many skills as everyone else. But I don't place a lot of emphasis on combat and much more enjoy roleplaying outside of combat.
Request
Can those bemoaning how overpowered the Wizard is in 5th edition please point out to me where the Wizard will overshadow everyone else. Because the only place I'm seeing it is when the party faces mooks that the fighter autokills on his turn. If that's the worst the Wizard can do, I fail to see how this is so much better then anyone else.
Instead I see a return to where the Wizard's usefulness is having utility spells. He has comprehend languages, allowing him to communicate with non-humans that don't speak Common. He has grease which can slow down the enemy and give the other PCs the time they need to finish the current bunch of monsters.
These spells aren't overpowered. It just means that the 5th edition Wizard will have SOME purpose, unlike the 4th edition wizard.
1. Remove complaints about 4th Edition. Seriously, those of us opposed to the quadratic wizard are not actually wanting the 4th wizard back, and you clearly never got to play with a properly made one.
2. Comprehend Languages invadlidates the need for languages. If a simple spells renders all but specifically prepared script understandable (or spoken word) why have languages but to let the wizard show off again how much more useful he is.
3. Charm Person - advantage on all social interaction for one hour per casting. No need for social pillar at all anymore as it becomes a decently charistmatic wizard's playground to the exclusion of all else.
4. Light v Kobolds - Yes kobolds are not suppose to be a major threat, but a cunning wizard can remove any threat of a kobold attack by simply prepration with a minor spell. Kobolds gain disadvantage in bright light, light gives 20ft radius of bright light. Enough to cover the front line to ensure that kobolds don't get advantage for outnumbering.
There. Thats with the limited spell list that wizards have at the moment.
What will change to the fighter with the full list of themes? Nothing, they might get two. Whoop-de-do.
What changes when the wizards get full list of spells? Everything. What we see now is what they want us to see, if you think Mage Armor won't make it into DDN you are mistaken, it has existed in nearly Every Single Iteration of DnD, it will in DDN. And if not, then something else that grants AC bonuses will.
Each spell adds verstality to the wizard, but each theme only gives the fighter more options at start, options the wizard could pick as well.
Why the Wizard (And, to a greater extent, Cleric and Druid) Was Overpowered: Sleep is a 1st level spell that knocks out 4hd worth of creatures on failed will saves. Though worthless after the first couple levels (since almost all opponents will have >4hd individually), when you're 1st or 2nd level, fighting 1-3hd humanoids, Sleep wipes an entire encounter. A wizard can do this 2-4 times per day depending on level and Int bonus. An Enchanter can do it an extra time per day.
Polymorph is a 4th level spell. A 7th level wizard can take any living creature shape that's 7hd or less, a number that goes up as the Wizard's level does. Though polymorph lasts mere minutes in 3.5, it lasted longer in 3.0, earning it a bad reputation. With tricks to extend duration, the wizard's physical stats no longer matter, and he can gain a whole slew of immunities and resistances based on the form chosen (often causing a ton of lag as the wizard searches the monster manual for just the right form). As a 9th level spell, you get a better version called Shapechange. Druids get a version of this as a class feature, and thus don't need to waste spell slots on it.
Planar Binding is a 6th level spell which can call to your service an outsider of no greater than 12hd -- let's say the 12hd, CR 13 Glabrezu. a 11th level wizard can do this 1-2 times a day; a conjurer can do it an extra time per day. The summoned creature lasts either a day/caster level, or until a specified task is completed. Assuming a specific task is used, the Wizard can continue summoning 1-3 Glabrezu every day, until a demon army of sufficent size has been accrued. Otherwise, he'll have to stop at 10-30 (and more at higher levels) before the rotation of fiends causes their numbers to stabalize. A single Glabrezu is significant threat for the wizard's entire level 11 party, a lot of them trivialize anything. On the day the wizard chooses to strike with the Glabrezu Task Force, he will have spent no spells. There's also a lesser version of Planar Binding at 5th level of spell: though it summons far weaker creatures, it is subject to the same abuses. Clerics can do this, wear heavy armor, and heal.
On the other hand, an Evoker's expected damage lags behind the expected damage of a fighter's full attack pattern, unless multiple targets can be caught by the area spells. Evocation spells have plenty of advantages (Elemental damage, area, etc.) but over all, damage is just about the tamest thing that a Wizard can do. This is why the Warmage (A sorcerer with extra perks that can only take damage spells) is Tier 4 (Weak end of balanced) when the Sorcerer is Tier 2 (Broken in half, but only in one or two ways per character). For reference, Fighter was Tier 5 (too weak to effectivley compete with anything better than tier 4) and the real "problem children" -- Clerics, Druids, and Wizards -- were Tier 1 (Broken in half in any situation).
Why the Wizard Alone Gets the Blame It's a matter of psychology. Those of us who really focused on 3.x know that, while the same overall tier, Clerics and Druids are much stronger, because they lack the few weaknesses that the Wizard still has: Low AC and HP in his natural form, a theoretically limited spellbook, and so on.
However, in actual play there's something of a Gentelmen's Agreement regarding the classes on the higher end of the tier scale: Everyone wants to have fun, so those who play the power classes will generally avoid breaking the game in half. For druids, this means specializing to cover a missing role. For clerics, this means acting as the dedicated box-of-bandaids. For Wizards... well, crud. What a gentelmanly wizard does may not be the extent of a wizard's power, but it appears stronger than either the designated healer or the role-fluxing druid.
Even a wizard who takes nothing but damaging evocation spells (Weaker than the warmage, having far fewer spells per day) gave the appearance of being flashy and strong. The actual numbers do not matter; Perception is all important in this.
Why the Wizard Can't Have Nice Things In short, because we, the folks who dislike 4e's way of doing things, want casters to be different again. Not overpowering, but unique and distinct, seperate from their non-caster bretheren. We seem to have already gotten our wish there. If Next is going to have a chance, though, it needs to not "Repeat the mistakes" of 3.5. To that end, the Wizard must be a sacrifice.
The worse the Wizard (specifically the Wizard) is at launch, the better off we'll be. If it has any overt power, the apparent potential to meet or excede the strength of the most basic fighter, We're in for a bitter war again. If the Wizard is next to unplayable at launch, the long-term prospects for both casters (other than the sacrificed wizard) and Next are looking up.
Ideally, a maximally optimized wizard will lose to a mildly optimized (at best) fighter. Every time. The current version of the wizard is a step in the right direction, but naturally it doesn't go far enough. Specifically, the following amendments should be made.
1) Fewer hit points. As a class feature, the Wizard should not get con to hp at 1st level like other characters (thus, starting with 2hp and goign up to 4 at 2nd and 6 at 3rd). They recieve no Hit Dice to self heal with. 2) More brutal downsides. Wizard spells should be move-or-cast rather than simply an action. Spells lost to disruption should be totally lost. Wizards should suffer a chance of spell failure even under perfect conditions (again, losing the prepared spell on a fail). Possibly: All wizard spells must roll to hit, saves are then taken as normal. 3) Nerfing of Defensive Abilities. Shield only has its "protection from magic missiles" effect. Mirror Image should permit an Intelligence Save by the attacker to negate the randomization before determining who is attacked. 4) Disincentives to use Minors. First, Magic Missile can't scale. It also trades in auto-hit for advantage on the attack (or simply loses any accuracy benefits). To keep from hosing fighters, Shocking Grasp loses its advantage versus armor. Minors do not benefit from the +2 to hit with spells. Minors are subject to Move-or-cast like all other spells (as per point 2) Possibly: Using Minors when not out of prepared spells burns a prepared spell of the highest level still prepared. Possibly: Using minors costs hp. 5) Removal of Negation and Battlefield Control. Ray of Frost reduces the target's speed by 5'. Sleep applies half speed below the hp threshold, does nothing to targets above it; it never causes unconciousness. Hold imposes Half Speed/-5' Speed based on hp threshold, save negates, save every round to shake off. Grease can only grease creatures. Charm cannot be cast on hostile targets and since victims recall being charmed, imposes disadvantage on all subsequent social checks after it wears off.
If all of these points were adopted, you would still see people declaring the Wizard overpowered. The perception is that strong.
"Enjoy your screams, Sarpadia - they will soon be muffled beneath snow and ice." THE COALITION WAR GAME -Phyrexian Praetor Round 1: (4-1-2, 1 kill) Round 2: (16-8-2, 4 kills) Round 3: (18-9-2, 1 kill) Round 4: (22-10-0, 2 kills) Round 5: (56-16-3, 9 kills) Round 6: (8-7-1) [current round]
So allegedly 3.5e had Wizards be the most powerful class ever. I never played 3.5e but I've heard that charge levelled at clerics and druids instead of Wizards.
I do play Pathfinder however. It keeps the Vancian system and yet somehow the Wizard doesn't dominate the fights.
I've never played or even seen 3.5 or Pathfinder, so I couldn't tell you where those impressions come from. But, even in the short time I've been reading these forums, I've heard the same charge leveled at the "3.5e" Cleric and Druid. Apparently, they were some sort of unholy trinity of power?
A lot of people complaining about the Wizard class point to 4th ed as an example of a system where Wizards were much more inline with the other classes. The only problem is, they weren't.
They are still quite powerful, with more and more varied powers than other classes, and some very potent powers, indeed. Sleep, the old stand-by, is still awesome, and stays that way a lot longer, for instance. No other class has a 1st-level power that renders multiple foes helpless. Even wizard at-wills do things no other class can match. No other at-will covers as large an area as Beguiling Strands, for another instance. For an at-will, it's death to minions on a grand scale. The wizard has powers that do every conceivable damage type, so if there's a vulnerability to be exploited, like the Phantom Brigade soldiers who lost Insubstantiality when they took force damage, the wizard is the one most likely able to do it. We could go on for pages about how awesome 4e Wizards are. They may not dominate outright, but they certainly contribute at least their fair share, with frequent opportunities to really shine.
Now, I can talk about D&D and AD&D. The magic-user really did have problems. You kids these days complaining about having only 20 hit points or only doing 5 damage with your Magic Missile every round, you don't know how good you got it! Ha! Try playing a magic-user when your one randomly-determined "offensive" spell is Affect Normal Fires. "Ooh, I hope the next monster is sitting next to a campfire so I can possibly give it some painful first-degree burns!" And, you only get to memorize one precious spell per day. And, good luck getting to second level when you have 1-4 hit points, an AC of 10, and your most effective contribution to combat is throwing darts over the fighter's head.
No, the 4e wizard has it great compared to the old days, and I couldn't picture having it much better without it just becoming boring. As a matter of fact, pulling back a little on the wizard, say by bringing back interruption, or not allowing Staff Expertise, or otherwise closing a few loopholes here and there might not be a bad thing.
I don't know what kind of "weird wizard show" you were enjoying in 3.5e, though.
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Stuff I Heard Mike Say (subject to change): Multiclassing will be different than in 3.5! That's important. There is no level cap; classes advance ala 3.5 epic levels after a set level. Mundane (AKA fighter and co) encounter and daily powers will probably not be in the PHB (for the lack of space), but nor will they be in some obscure book released halfway through the edition.
You can't please everyone, but you can please me. I DO NOT WANT A FREAKING 4E REPEAT. I DO NOT WANT A MODULE THAT MIMICS MY FAVORITE EDITION. I WANT MODULES THAT MIMIC A PLAYSTYLE AND CAN BE INTERCHANGED TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE FEEL, BUT NOT THE THEME, OF D&D. A perfect example would be an espionage module, or desert survival. A BAD EXAMPLE IS HEALING SURGES. WE HAVE 4E FOR THOSE! A good example is a way to combine a mundane and self healing module, a high-survival-rate module, and a separate pool of healing resource module.
Or you know he can lock the single biggest mook in place to let the rest the party deal with the mooks.
Assuming he hits every time. And even then, he's still relying on the rest of the party to work together. I don't see this is a gigantic failure if the Wizard can contribute meaningfully to help his party overcome dangerous encounters.
While still maintaing spells to have advantage in non-combat (Charm person for instance).
Can you please explain how Charm Person is going to triviliaze all the other PCs in the party? Because I'm seeing a walking time bomb that you had better hope gets killed by the party and quickly, because they're going to be gunning for the Wizard once it wears off.
2. Comprehend Languages invadlidates the need for languages.
It sure does. Why my Wizard can sneak up on the monsters and overhear their battleplan, as long as he's touching one of them. That sure is better then the Rogue who has goblin as a language he can understand.
advantage on all social interaction for one hour per casting. No need for social pillar at all anymore as it becomes a decently charistmatic wizard's playground to the exclusion of all else.
If I diplomacise the monster, how long will it last before it wears off? Because for the Wizard it's an entire hour.
Kobolds gain disadvantage in bright light, light gives 20ft radius of bright light. Enough to cover the front line to ensure that kobolds don't get advantage for outnumbering.
So, the Wizard can help buff his allies by debuffing the enemy and is therefore broken and no-one else will want to play any other class?
The kobolds are also incapable of simply retreating in this scenario as well.
The Wizard is not useless or underpowered in 4E. I played one to level 21 so I should know. My Half-Elf Orbizard wasn't even fully optimized and yet he could still trivialize encounters with ease.
Tevish_Szat: You should put that up somewhere so it can be referenced at will.
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling
Defenders: We ARE the wall!
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