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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 1:19PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 18, 2009
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So this happened at our table the other day and I was wondering how common this is.
One of the players was describing his action and the DM informed him of the DC. The player shot back with, "my other 5e DM said I could do this automatically cause I am a rogue the first time we played." Well, the player failed the roll and spent the rest of the game not being a happy camper. And that killed our game.
I get that the player should not be so childish. But with the current rules being so geared towards DM approval, this seems like it could be a common problem.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 2:11PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2009
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Yep, get ready for a pretty heavy backlash for pointing out this shortcoming of the new system. Some people just will refuse to see it as a problem. They'll recommend complicated work-arounds, say the player or the DM is bad and there's nothing you can do about bad players or DMs, or they'll just deny that it was really a problem for you. Anything to avoid having to confront the problems of the DM as demigod direction of DDN.
"What is the sort of thing that I do care about is a failure to seriously evaluate what does and doesn't work in favor of a sort of cargo cult posturing. And yes, it's painful to read design notes columns that are all just "So D&D 3.5 sort of had these problems. We know people have some issues with them. What a puzzler! But we think we have a solution in the form of X", where X is sort of a half-baked version of an idea that 4e executed perfectly well and which worked fine." - Lesp
"They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - Thecasualoblivion
"When I DM Next I feel that I might as well be running a game based off of notes scribbled on a paper napkin." -Reinhart
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 2:12PM
#3
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So this happened at our table the other day and I was wondering how common this is. One of the players was describing his action and the DM informed him of the DC. The player shot back with, "my other 5e DM said I could do this automatically cause I am a rogue the first time we played." Well, the player failed the roll and spent the rest of the game not being a happy camper. And that killed our game. I get that the player should not be so childish. But with the current rules being so geared towards DM approval, this seems like it could be a common problem.
I agree. We're playing D&D, not 'Mother May I'.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 2:58PM
#4
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[sarcasm]Quit being a bad DM and just let the player do whatever they want. A good DM can...[/sarcasm]
But seriously its a real problem and needs to be taken care of...
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:21PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2010
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It's certainly hard to plan out turns when you need DM's approval for basic things. Also, there's the potential for favortism.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:24PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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Again with the targeted attacks at DMs?
How has setting DCs ever not been the DMs discretion?
I know we don't agree guys but can you stop with the targeted insults?
I could list all of the insulting terms for your playstyle but honestly I don't want to add to this fire.
Please at least be respectful when voicing your opinion on an issue that has occurred in every system and yes I have encountered it in 4th and yes it was the same DM I played under in 3.5 and when he Gamemastered for other non DnD systems. The problem is when players don't understand the rules to begin with and then cross from one DM to another.
It happens, it shouldn't, it is unfortunate.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:44PM
#7
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Again with the targeted attacks at DMs? How has setting DCs ever not been the DMs discretion? I know we don't agree guys but can you stop with the targeted insults? I could list all of the insulting terms for your playstyle but honestly I don't want to add to this fire. Please at least be respectful when voicing your opinion on an issue that has occurred in every system and yes I have encountered it in 4th and yes it was the same DM I played under in 3.5 and when he Gamemastered for other non DnD systems. The problem is when players don't understand the rules to begin with and then cross from one DM to another. It happens, it shouldn't, it is unfortunate.
4E had a chart of expected DCs by level. You were allowed to throw challenges that were above or below those DCs but you at least knew where to aim. In 5E you have all of the problems of 3.xE and none of the solutions.
Yeah, also you might want to read the OP. He said he played under 2 DMs for the play test and he tried something under one DM who said it was an automatic success, when he tried the exact same thing under a new DM, the DM made him roll for it, he failed and it ruined the rest of the session for you.
Its called getting your expectations up and then dashing them, and really its the developers fault because they tell the DM to guess whether something is an auto-success or whether the player should roll for it, or whether its an auto-fail, without any real guidance. That is the problem we are pointing to with 5E.
Can you imagine an RPGA tournament where points are awarded for completing objectives. I can see the mess these rules would make to that. Where each DM is allowed to arbitrate whether an action can be performed based on personal opinion. I mean a good, fair, clever DM would do fine, but the larger group of mediocre, new, mistake prone, etc... DMs would royally mess it up...
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 4:03PM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2012
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The 3.x system for skills had a bit of a scaling issue. We found a repeat of that in the COMBAT system of 4e, where it was a scramble to keep your hit rate even with monster defenses. While the DCs should by all means have been relatively static, the result was, instead, more or less "difficulty is Eleven plus your level", and so things like thieves had to keep their skills all capped to keep up, or became useless. Honestly that's not much different, given how the system was actually explained, than 4th's at all, its just that characters in 4th compensate by auto-scaling with level on their skills [all of them, evenly...]
OP: Your game, Your rules. On the spot, your judgement stands, and if they start bickering, roll on the smartass-smackdown-table, withold EPs, or otherwise punish them. They'll get the message soon enough.
AFTER game, you can listen to an argument, long as he's not throwing a four year old's tantrum about it, on how the other ruling went: Maybe the other GM DID have a very good idea or judgement about it. He COULD be better at math than you are too. OR you'll realise that other GM, after carefully listening, was one of those sappy let'em-do-whatever types that had the artifacts and praise flowing like the entire game was to be televised on Disney Jr.
Only one way to find out. But while the game's running, at the table, "but my other GM said I could" oughta be a straight-up smackdown.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 4:07PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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Lokaire, ( not chastising I promise).
Did you read the DM guidelines portion of the packet ?
It gives examples of DCs and how to apply ads/disads.
They set a max DC.
It's actually fairly clear. If a DM rules differently it isn't for a lack of info.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 4:15PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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According to the rule a check auto succeeds if your relevant stat is 5 higher than the DC.
It gives DCs for things like picking locks, balancing, etc.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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