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Switch to Forum Live View Maybe Batman belongs in D&D
13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:32AM #1
Butcha
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 323
After hanging around here for a long time something has struck me - Lots of players hate limitations and weaknesses.

A couple of classic examples:

* My character should be able to heal himself. I should not need a cleric.
* Why can only wizards do awesome powers... My fighter should be able to fly/make earthquakes/waterbreathe etc... (exemplifies using demi-godish character from mythology).
* Why can this race do this and not my race. It's unfair that dwarves are better with axes than other races.
* Why does the shorter race move shorter distances, it makes other races more qualified at ...
* Why are bards better at social skills... I might have a social fighter.
* Why does this weapon deal more damage than this... It means if I have another weapon my character is worse.
* etc etc

To be honest, people who have made these statements have generally annoyed me. The collective statements above is the death of class/race/weapon variation, and the introduction of the batman build.

But today I realized something... I used to be one of those people.

When I started playing RPGs as a kid I made dwarves lugging around siege weapons because they had the best damage dice (another RPG). Later on my perspective changed and I changed my gaming style.

But there are probably tons of kids out there who wants to play insanely powerful characters... and probably some adults who never changed their gaming style.

I was thinking... In the Tera MMO they have classes who requires different amount of skill. If you want to play an easy class you can do that, while people who want to challenge themselves can play characters who will have a much harder time. This is not an issue in that game, people are not taunting you for playing an easier class, it is part of the game.

Maybe D&D should have an unrestricted class for people who want to play whatever their hearts desire, a batman build if you will. Call it Demi-God and let the player choose whatever powers, skills and feats he wants to have. For parents who want to introduce their kids to RPGs this could be a great way to let them explore their fantasies without fear of dying. Adults who feels restricted by all limitations in the D&D class/race system can pick whatever they want, but may choose to restrict themselves to a level of mortality that fits their style of play.

You might argue that the system is flawed because it poses no restrictions on powerlevel. The argument is flawed in my mind though, because the huge problem is that we have no agreement on where the powerlevel should be. Some likes more powerful, some likes less powerful, some likes lethal, some likes immortal. People will have issues no matter where the powerlevel is placed.

People like me who think that the natural healing is too generous will houserule it, or if they think their character is too powerful they might impose character-restrictions on how they play (i.e. will only chose spells belonging to a certain school or element, or might pick a worse armor than available because the character feels uncomfortable in plate.).

People who wants more power can play demi-gods and pick and choose their powers without restrictions of classes and races.

This allows WotC to create classes that feels solid and makes sense, while everyone who feels left out can opt to make a more powerful character if they want. In the end, the RPG should be about everyone getting to play the characters of their hearts desire. If the game just recognizes that this is ok, maybe playing a more powerful character wouldn't be so stigmatized.


The Character Initiative Show



Every time you abuse the system you enforce limitations.
Every time the system is limited we lose options.
Breaking an RPG is like cheating in a computer game.
As a DM you are the punkbuster of your table.
Dare to say no to abusers.
Make players build characters, not characters out of builds.





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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:36AM #2
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 17,768
Its called the CoDzilla.

Improvisation in 4e: Improv. Attacks(by wrecan) - Fave 4E Improvisations

The Non-combatant Adventurer

Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness

Dynamic Reflavoring : The Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage
Creative Character Collection - Featuring:The Faerie Master - Snow White - Joxer - Ironman - Elric - Bloodwright

By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one

"You have to explicitly give non-casters permission to do awesome, where as with magic it is just assumed they can." -Garthanos

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:45AM #3
Leekanh
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2009
Posts: 287
It's (usually) not a power/difficulty issue, it's simply that a lot of people don't want to be pidgeon-holed in an extremely specific (and at the same time generic) subset of fantasy.

A lot of people find it boring after a while or not really that compelling to begin with. Also it hurts customization, wich is rarely a good thing in an rpg.
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:56AM #4
kaliban7
Date Joined: Mar 14, 2009
Posts: 752

Jun 3, 2012 -- 10:32AM, Butcha wrote:


But there are probably tons of kids out there who wants to play insanely powerful characters... and probably some adults who never changed their gaming style.




First : I sometime fancy playing a game where characters are just normal individuals. I also sometimes fancy playing games were the characters can face an elder dragon with a chance to win. Different styles or expectations.

Second : there is a wide margin between "does basic attacks" and "insanely powerful". Between "you're a commoner" and "you're a demi-god", there is also  "you are a master fencer". My own preferences are for characters that are a little above average and can become masters of their craft with time. As , you see, I already know what being a commoner feels like

Remember Tunnel Seventeen !
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 11:12AM #5
erachima
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2010
Posts: 7,675
You've got it all flipped on its head, Butcha. People aren't arguing that every character can do everything, they're arguing that any character can do something, and that their imagination not be impinged upon by some writer's stereotype.

  • Nobody should have to play a Cleric unless they conceptually want to be a church militant. Therefore the Cleric cannot have a monopoly on healing.
  • Nobody should have to be a caster unless they conceptually want to be magical. Therefore the Wizard cannot have a monopoly on powerful effects.
  • Nobody should have to play a Dwarf unless they conceptually want to be a Dwarf. Therefore the Dwarf cannot have a monopoly on using axes.
  • Nobody should have to use a scythe, rapier, spiked chain, etc. unless they conceptually want to use that weapon. Therefore no specific weapon can have a monopoly on high damage.

People having to pick limits for their characters is fine. People having their limits dictated by the limits of someone else's imagination is not.

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 11:21AM #6
Areleth
Date Joined: Jan 12, 2012
Posts: 562

Jun 3, 2012 -- 10:36AM, Garthanos wrote:

Its called the CoDzilla.



Seriously, if we want to be all-powerful Demi-Gods with no weaknesses then most of us know how to do that already.

The problem is that the Wizard is already Batman. All he needs to face any challenge is 'Prep Time'. Really, compare the two. Batman has a superpower and its called 'Being Batman'. The Wizard has a similar superpower called 'Being the Wizard'. They get all the best toys and an answer for every damn situation that could ever arise and they're both super popular so any attempt to tone it down is met with great resistance because then Batman/the Wizard won't be as special or better than everyone else in the Justice League/Party.

As someone who absolutely loves Batman it pains me to say this, but I don't want to be Batman. And I now have an unending well of hatred for you, for presenting me with a scenario where I would actually say that.

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 11:26AM #7
Butcha
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 323

Jun 3, 2012 -- 11:12AM, erachima wrote:

You've got it all flipped on its head, Butcha. People aren't arguing that every character can do everything, they're arguing that any character can do something, and that their imagination not be impinged upon by some writer's stereotype.

  • Nobody should have to play a Cleric unless they conceptually want to be a church militant. Therefore the Cleric cannot have a monopoly on healing.
  • Nobody should have to be a caster unless they conceptually want to be magical. Therefore the Wizard cannot have a monopoly on powerful effects.
  • Nobody should have to play a Dwarf unless they conceptually want to be a Dwarf. Therefore the Dwarf cannot have a monopoly on using axes.
  • Nobody should have to use a scythe, rapier, spiked chain, etc. unless they conceptually want to use that weapon. Therefore no specific weapon can have a monopoly on high damage.

People having to pick limits for their characters is fine. People having their limits dictated by the limits of someone else's imagination is not.




I don't think that any character would want to break every single rule, but there are many who would want to break more than one.

But if all limitations can be broken by someone... why add them in the first place? Without limitations we have no use for classes/races/weapons except for the name.

Or if we keep them, should every character get 2 charges of "break rule". I want a dwarf (with faerie flight) fighter carrying a bola that does 2d6 (greataxe damage).

The reason I suggested the demi-god type class is because those players should be able to avoid having their limits dictated by someone elses imagination. As a demi-god (or chosen if you don't like the flavor of the name) they were born outside the normal constraints of their race, and they éxcelled maybe not only in one profession but several.



The Character Initiative Show



Every time you abuse the system you enforce limitations.
Every time the system is limited we lose options.
Breaking an RPG is like cheating in a computer game.
As a DM you are the punkbuster of your table.
Dare to say no to abusers.
Make players build characters, not characters out of builds.





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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 11:49AM #8
Jorunhast
Date Joined: Jan 6, 2010
Posts: 1,325

Jun 3, 2012 -- 10:32AM, Butcha wrote:

After hanging around here for a long time something has struck me - Lots of players hate limitations and weaknesses.
(...snip...)
To be honest, people who have made these statements have generally annoyed me. The collective statements above is the death of class/race/weapon variation, and the introduction of the batman build...



Having been with this game now for decades, I think you're spot-on 100% correct.

In the beginning, there was a reason that younger players gravitated away from AD&D and toward the Immortals playset.  And this is it.  Recently, there's been far too much catering to wannabe Batmen.  It wasn't just a problem with 4E, though, there are examples aplenty in late 2E and 3.5E.



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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 11:56AM #9
Pashalik_Mons
Date Joined: May 17, 2009
Posts: 7,095
Why are people still posting?  Garthanos already won the thread.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven.  You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner


4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 12:39PM #10
Butcha
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 323

Jun 3, 2012 -- 11:56AM, Pashalik_Mons wrote:

Why are people still posting?  Garthanos already won the thread.




By making a smug remark about another edition? Awesome.

Or maybe he was serious and wants the cleric and druid to be Batmans? But I don't really believe that was his intention... and I don't think you do either.



The Character Initiative Show



Every time you abuse the system you enforce limitations.
Every time the system is limited we lose options.
Breaking an RPG is like cheating in a computer game.
As a DM you are the punkbuster of your table.
Dare to say no to abusers.
Make players build characters, not characters out of builds.





Quick Reply
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