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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 9:51AM
#1
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2012
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I have seen several post and read several survey questions posing the question of "are the classes balanced?" When did this become a problem or a concern. In 1st edition, if you played a monk you knew he was probably going to die, but you hoped he wouldn't so you could have an awesome character later, same with the mage classes, cast that one spell and then find a weapon that you could wield (or hide out) until you got a chance to rest. If you didn't want the risk you could play a fighter or cleric. What happened to those high risk, high reward classes. I don't get it are we trying to make it fair? Did Gandalf sit down with Elrond and have a conversation about making sure the party setting out from Rivendell was "balanced"?
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 10:15AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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YES.
Because Yes.
Because being inherently weaker doesn't make you a better roleplayer, and it does NOT make for better roleplaying opportunities.
EDIT: Because not having any effect on the game is NOT fun. And this is a game.
Because being relegated to "pack-mule_ because I picked the wrong class is NOT fun.
Because ending the game with a handful of resources is NOT fun. (In a serious game. in silly games, it's only not fun for the other players.)
Because having to hold myself back so that my friends can make worthwhile contributiions is NOT fun.
EDIT2:
Because: JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED A PROBLEM DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST
Exmple: I have a car. I receive a recall notice saying that some cars of my Make & Model have had a problem where the whels come off and the car flips over into oncoming trafic.
Just because I haven't experienced this problem doesn't make other people's experiences less valid, or any less relevant to me.
Ahh, so THIS is where I can add a sig.
Remember: Killing an ancient God inside of a pyramid IS a Special Occasion, and thus, ladies should be dipping into their Special Occasions underwear drawer.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 10:22AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I dont think classes need to be balanced evenly at every level. There are three progressions I can see working equally well:
1) weaker at first, stronger later
2) stronger at first, weaker later
3) moderately strong all the way through
The complaint of, "He's stronger than me and it's not FAIR!" is childish and immature. Every class will shine at some point when used to its highest capacity. I want them all to be drastically different and this necessitates an imbalance in power at various levels.
I do NOT want the 4th edition balance-all-classes-to-the-point-that-they're-identical-save-for-flavor-text approach.
...just my 2cp
My Paladin: Hey mage, why are you always reading that book?
Party Wizard: This tome contains a wealth of knowledge, sir knight.
My Paladin: Well if tomes contain knowledge, knowledge is power, power corrupts, and corruption is evil...than the more you read the more evil you become! Quickly everyone, get her!
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 10:26AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2008
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"He's stronger than me and it's not FAIR!" is childish and immature.
That's not the complaint.
The complaint is "He's so MUCH stronger than me that there is no reason for me to be here."
A well played 3x Wizard could be this guy from level 1, and was this guy from by level 7 at the latest.
Ahh, so THIS is where I can add a sig.
Remember: Killing an ancient God inside of a pyramid IS a Special Occasion, and thus, ladies should be dipping into their Special Occasions underwear drawer.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 10:51AM
#5
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Arguing that 4e classes all played the same same is childish and immature and factually false.
If you want to play spellcasters and sidekicks ask your DM to give all your attacks advantage and all enemies disadvantage against you. It is far easier to unbalance a balanced game than to balance an unbalanced one.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 11:00AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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The wizard is super-powerful three times a day in this playtest. After that, he needs his friends or he will die as running and hiding so he can rest is not always an option. There is absolutely a reason for the other party members to be there. The wizard can't disable the traps reliably, heal himself or the other party members, doesn't have incredible social capacities and can't carry the heavy loads. What's the problem?
And, yes, it is somewhat childish to say that all of the classes played the same. It comes down to how you use the tools available. So, they could easily have been played the same if you chose to. That's kinda weird if you ask me and I really prefer a system that differentiates options more greatly.
...just my 2cp
My Paladin: Hey mage, why are you always reading that book?
Party Wizard: This tome contains a wealth of knowledge, sir knight.
My Paladin: Well if tomes contain knowledge, knowledge is power, power corrupts, and corruption is evil...than the more you read the more evil you become! Quickly everyone, get her!
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 11:02AM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2012
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Yes, Dungeons and Dragons must be balanced because it is a tactical combat simulator.
No matter how "weak" a character is - a strong roleplayer cannot be outshined in roleplay - and vice versa.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 12:15PM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2012
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I do NOT want the 4th edition balance-all-classes-to-the-point-that-they're-identical-save-for-flavor-text approach. ...just my 2cp
That's a pretty narrowminded judgement, as the form a Defender class does his job is very different depending on class (e.g.: Fighter vs Swordmage). I like balance in the game because IT'S A GAME and we want to enjoy it all the time we play it, not just at the start of the campaign or at the end of one. All of us want to do meaningful contributions in and out of combat.
Balance it's of the essence of games, specially RPGs; this is not reality, this is a game.
(I'm a DM and Wizard-class player, since AD&D and hated that the wizard did nothing at early levels and then could overwhelm all his enemies alone at high levels)
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 12:43PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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The wizard is super-powerful three times a day in this playtest. After that, the party goes back to town to rest so the Wizard can get his spells back.
Granted, giving the Wizard the ability to have at-wills is a welcome change, but....it still boils down to the fact that the Wizard and the Cleric, and more specifically their spells, are the ones determining when the entire party goes back to rest.
There is absolutely a reason for the other party members to be there.
To carry the Wizard's luggage! Ok, ok, I'll read..
The wizard can't disable the traps reliably, heal himself or the other party members,
.....sooo the Wizard needs an entourage to carry his luggage, dress him, and file his nails. But, concerning the traps....creative use of the Wizard's at-will abilities (Mage Hand, et al) can probably serve well. if not, well, then thats what scrolls of Summon Monster are for.
doesn't have incredible social capacities
Charm.
and can't carry the heavy loads.
Yet.
What's the problem?
The problem is that aside from some insignificant instances, this playtest is back to Casters and Commoners. Casters, be they Wizards or Clerics, are the ones that matter; non-casters do not.
I may be drawing from prior editions here, but....even by low levels (before 7), Wizards don't need help for some stuff. For example, by level 4, a Wizard doesn't really need someone to watch over him while he sleeps, because Alarm can wake him if his perimiter is breached, and guard him for the entire 8 hours of his nap. At level 5, Tiny Hut means you really don't need to worry.
The history of Wizards is that, eventually, they'll get a spell that can let them say, "Yeah, I can do that too."
Thats what I am against.
I really prefer a system that differentiates options more greatly.
Oh, then have you looked at 4th Edition? Each class has a different mechanic for how they do their job! Strikers, for instance, require the Rogues to have Combat Advantage to sneak attack, whereas the Avenger can only do extra damage against the target of his oath, which he can't change until the current target is defeated.
I have to cut this rant short. Going on a bike ride.
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling Defenders: We ARE the wall! I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D. Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e! I am a hero, not a chump.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 1:04PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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@Ogiwan
If this is, in fact, how your group plays things then that sucks, but none of the groups I've ever been in we're remotely close to that. Once the Wizard blew his load he grabbed his Xbow and chilled in back taking pot-shots. He wasn't the group leader and didn't command the party to bow to his wishes and retreat to town so he could take a catnap. That's ridiculous!
Charm is useable x/day. Skill checks are unlimited. Ergo, a character trained in social skills will outshine the wizard. Additionally, if the wizard is spending resources on duplicating other party member's capabilities that player is willingly forgoing versatility which is generally a flawed approach to playing a Wizard.
Each class has its own strengths and use in conjunction create a powerful and fun group to play in. One of them being stronger some of the time is not an issue in the groups I play in.
Also, what you constitute as significant and insignificant are perhaps different than me, but I like to think as anything that let's people have fun is very significant.
Finally, I don't want to tread to closely to the "Edition war" debate, so I'll say in closing that 4th edition classes have a great amount of overlap that is truly only differentiated by flavor text and keywords. My experience showed eight different classes handling the NPCs in combat in nearly identical fashion despite my attempts to the contrary. YMMV
...just my 2 cp
My Paladin: Hey mage, why are you always reading that book?
Party Wizard: This tome contains a wealth of knowledge, sir knight.
My Paladin: Well if tomes contain knowledge, knowledge is power, power corrupts, and corruption is evil...than the more you read the more evil you become! Quickly everyone, get her!
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