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12 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 6:23PM
#1
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I'm pretty well convinced Skill Mastery as currently written leads to removing all tension from skill situations. Take a hypothetical human Rogue with a Woodsman background giving him Climbing as a skill, and a 13 Strength. He now has a +4 bonus on most climb checks. Because of skill mastery he has a minimum result on any climb check of 14. As a result he can attempt to climb the oiled ropes (DC 21), a nominally extreme activity, with impunity. There is a zero chance that he can fall. Even a master difficulty challenge of DC 23 is perfectly safe. And then at DC 24 he suddenly has a 50% chance of rolling a 10 or lower and falling.
Thinking about the math, it is obvious why this is a problem. The result floor makes most situations uninteresting, but then if the result floor is below the hazard level you suddenly have all the rolls up to that value to result in the hazard going off.
So, how to fix it? An obvious answer is to invoke the advantage rule instead. This substantially improves the likelihood of success, but still allows failure. But, it also means the master can never benefit from help. It also prevents the character from doing other things with the goal of gaining advantage. I'd prefer a solution that is at least a bit different.
My first idea is a simplification. For tasks that use a trained skill and a DC you have automatic success if your ability score exceeds the DC. If it is a contested check you may elect to take 10 for your result instead of making a roll.
My second idea is the same automatic success threshold and if you do roll and your initial check is 5 or less you may choose to re-roll the die but must take the second result.
Reactions?
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12 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 10:36PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2004
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Why are you adding 10 on your skill bonuses?
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12 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 10:52PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2007
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I think this is a misunderstanding on many people's parts. The rules say that the minimum score is 10. It doesn't say the minimum score is +10. So if your hypothetical rogue rolls a 1, it defaults to 10. If he rolls a 13, it's just a 13.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 11:43PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2008
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The OP has a valid point. I agree, Advantage would be better than minimum die roll of 10 IMO. At first I did'nt get what you were saying now ... I get it.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 12:16AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2007
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Yeah, that minimum of 10 is a bit much. Even the best screw up now and then, sometimes royally!
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12 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 12:36AM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Why are you adding 10 on your skill bonuses?
DM Guidelines page 3, "Hazards".
Mein isn't talking about automatically succeeding, he's talking about automatically not failing. He's... mostly right.
Because our hypothetical Rogue has a minimum check result of 14 to Climb, he will never suffer the effects of a Hazard for any climb check with a DC of 23 or less, because he can't fail the check by 10 or more. He still has to actually roll a 19 or better to succeed on a DC 23 check, however (a detail which Mein may be overlooking): he has a 45% chance of failing the roll badly enough that Skill Mastery matters and saves him from falling (roll 1-9), a 45% chance (roll 10-18) of failing the roll but not badly enough to risk falling, and a 10% chance (roll 19-20) of succeeding on the check.
This changes once you get to DC 24, where a roll of 10 (total 14, 10 less than the DC) does suffer the consequences of the Hazard. At this point, Skill Mastery ceases to apply, and the Rogue is reduced to a 50% chance (roll 1-10) of suffering the hazard, a 45% chance (roll 11-19) of failing the check but not badly enough to fall, and a 5% chance (roll 20) of actually succeeding in the climb, identical to any other character who has a total +4 to Climb.
Mein's example is a little bit ridiculous, but it does illustrate the basic problem with Skill Mastery; that it takes the tension and drama out of most skill checks the Rogue is going to make, and makes the few that are high enough DC to render Skill Mastery irrelevant seem unnecessarily punishing.
A more realistic example would have been our actual playtest Rogue, who auto-succeeds DC 16 or less on four of his six skills. One of those skills is shared only by one other party member, and the other three are skills only the Rogue is trained in. Of those three, two are skills the other characters can't even attempt because they lack the class feature (Tools of the Trade) and the equipment (thieves' tools) to do so. In effect, there's no point to ever using a lock or trap with a DC less than 17 (an "Advanced" difficulty), because the Rogue automatically defeats them, no roll necessary.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 12:36AM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 30, 2010
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Skill mastery is certainly confusing as written.
If you read it that your minimum result is 10, then the skill is useless.
Any DC below 11 is assumed to automatically succeed, there is no need to roll.
So in my view, the minimum ROLL must be 10. Meaning, 10 + ability + skill bonus.
Now, you have a situation, that for the rogue, any stealth check below 16 isn't needed to be made at all. He will always get a 16 or better.
However, I think the OP is confusing "failure" with 'hazard".
It is NOT easy for the Rogue to climb an oily rope. He still needs to roll an 18 to do that. (18 + 3 = 21) However, the rogue will not risk taking damage from his failure to climb the rope properly. The only time he risks a hazard, is when the dc check for stealth is 36. At the same time, the Rogue can't actually get a 36 if he tried, so yeah, he's going to suffer a hazard. (cause rolling a 20, he still suffers the hazard)
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12 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 1:30AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2010
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Indeed, one of the biggest faults with the system is the simply unnatural drop-off in difficulty as soon as your Mastery no longer covers the Hazard DC. The chance of hazard goes from 0% to 50%. How does the realistically simulate a linear difficulty scale? It doesn't. Mechanically, it's broken.
Plain and simple.
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Endorsed by the C.C.A.A. Booty Patrol.
"If all the classes can compete on equal footing in a combat situation then it becomes less about "Which is the best" and more about "Which conveys the character I want to play"." - Areleth
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12 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 2:43AM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 30, 2010
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Indeed, one of the biggest faults with the system is the simply unnatural drop-off in difficulty as soon as your Mastery no longer covers the Hazard DC. The chance of hazard goes from 0% to 50%. How does the realistically simulate a linear difficulty scale? It doesn't. Mechanically, it's broken.
Plain and simple.
Let's relate this to real life for a minute.
Say your trying to fix an eletrical outlet. There is always a risk of eletrocuting yourself if you do so.
However, a trained eletrcician, will never eletrocute themselves. They know how to ground the wires, and use the right equipment to ensure their safety.
Now, throw that same electrician into a Power plant, and ask him to replace the Giant eletrical coils powering the Eletrical system. Suddenly, his skills are completely useless, and he has just as much a chance of getting hurt as some unskilled day laborer off the streat.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 4:45AM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Because our hypothetical Rogue has a minimum check result of 14 to Climb, he will never suffer the effects of a Hazard for any climb check with a DC of 23 or less, because he can't fail the check by 10 or more.
Only if he has Climbing +3 has a Trained Skill though. The current Rogue Pregen doesn't.Its often overlooked, but Skill Mastery only works with Skill in which you have training.
But i agree that giving it an Advantage would be better IMO than a minimum check threshold and i'd prefer something along the lines of:
Skill Mastery: When you make a Skill check using a Skill in which you have training, you have Advantage even while Disadvantaged.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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