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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 8:13AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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After DMing and having at length disussions with my players, and after reading many threads on the community boards, I see a trend. In 5e, players who enjoyed playing the pregen that they played generally were the ones who focused primarily on roleplaying rather than a particular game mechanic. Players who really immersed themselves in their character, thinking and acting how they felt the character should, felt as if the character worked well and enjoyed the open nature of the skill system because it allowed them to stay in character rather than search through a list of abilities to decide what worked best for a specific situation.
To me, this is a step in the right direction. I like to play RPGs to explore fantasy worlds and become an interesting character. If the characters are given too many "buttons" they tend to become too mechanical, more video game-like.
As such, so far (without any mods) the core 5e seems to not only encourage, but require players to roleplay in order to really enjoy the game. What are your thoughts?
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 8:28AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2012
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I think maybe this is almost dead on. I'd further add that players who are interested in coming up with imaginative solutions to things can be added to this list as they are rewarded for their creative, 'outside the stated rules' efforts. So they've addressed the roleplayers and the clever tacticians. As a player, I am probably a mix of both of these styles, so DDN is already very close to my perfect game.
I personally do not fully enjoy the boardgamey feel of later editions of the game, but I can certainly see where they would appeal to many players. Having your options spelled out for you frees your mind to focus on other things happening in the game. It's on your character sheet, you simply review and do. Or ... it's on cards. Either way, there is more information, but it becomes simpler the more you play in that style. Some players require the complex structure of pre-definition. I don't think this is a fault. It's just a different way for them to wrap their minds around the game on the whole.
Fortunately, the options are coming to cater to their playstyle, too.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 8:57AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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After DMing and having at length disussions with my players, and after reading many threads on the community boards, I see a trend. In 5e, players who enjoyed playing the pregen that they played generally were the ones who focused primarily on roleplaying rather than a particular game mechanic.
I'm sorry, but I can roleplay in any system, so yes the things I am going to look at for critique are the game mechanics. That doesn't mean that people who don't like the mechanics are somehow not roleplaying, it means we don't allow good players and good RP to be an excuse for poor game mechanics.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 9:09AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2007
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@Rhenny
Well, if the true goal is to simply enable the RP experience you've described above why bother with any kind of rules at all? Wouldn't it be easier to have the players create a brief description of their characters and then (once the story starts) simply have them describe their actions with the DM adjudicating the results? No need to grab those pesky dice, they'd just interfere with the narrative, right?
The rules of the system are what help the players and DM define the characters and campaign story. What the last few editions of D&D have done well (IMHO) is offering character creation rules with plenty of options for customization.
This is what I want from D&D Next, it doesn't need to be the AW-E-D mechanic of 4th or the amount multiclassing options that tended to be the norm in 3rd. But some level of customization within the character classes has become essential to D&D's well being. For the record, the extra options in these editions never hampered the RP in my games.
I've been DMing for 30+ years and back in the early days of the game there was no difference between two different fighters save the gear they owned, ability scores and the players vision of the character. If that's where D&D Next is headed, then why bother with such simple rules when I could create a shared story experience with no rules at all.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 9:17AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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My original observation did not in any way say that players could not roleplay in other iterations, nor did it say that the rules were not important. All I said was that it seems that players who are roleplaying are more enthusiastic about the characters they play in this iteration. The open skills system (which is a mechanic) is encouraging (and possibly requiring) roleplaying.
I am not bashing players or other systems. Just observing.
Cheers.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 9:28AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2012
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Ok, so you are never required to roleplay to have fun. But the OP is suggesting that the mechanics may be encouraging roleplay and people are having fun with that. Poor mechanics (and I will agree that some of them need some tweaking) seem irrelevant to this observation.
It also seems counter-intuitive to bash roleplaying as viable enjoyment of the playtest when we're playtesting a roleplaying game. There are no sides to this debate. The roleplay and the mechanics are meant to mesh together for the complete experience. Nothing but roleplay is open storytelling. Nothing but mechanics is a boardgame.
If lots of players are having lots of fun roleplaying while using the mechanics, then this is probably a good thing...
Or have I finally gone crazy?
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 10:05AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2007
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It also seems counter-intuitive to bash roleplaying as viable enjoyment of the playtest when we're playtesting a roleplaying game. There are no sides to this debate. The roleplay and the mechanics are meant to mesh together for the complete experience. Nothing but roleplay is open storytelling. Nothing but mechanics is a boardgame.
At which point in my post did I bash roleplaying? I agree 100% that RP is the key element to an enjoyable gaming experience.
Perhaps I misread the OP's intent, but I've noticed that when someone raises an issue about the simplicity of the playtest materials that many people on these forums will respond with "Well, just RP creatively" as the proposed fix
My point is that creative RP can and should be part of any game, it's not a unique or defining facet of D&D Next. I'm also tired of the implication in some posts that the "powers" in 4E got in the way of roleplaying - YOU CAN RP IN ANY RULES SYSTEM (sorry for shouting). D&D Next needs to define itself as different than what came before or why bother with a new edition of the game? As I stated above, what I really want are a set of rules that offer solid options for players to customize their characters, interesting monsters to pit them against (a hero is only as good as their villian) put together in a way that enhances the groups shared "RP vision" of their particular game world.
This brings me to the playtest materials (for the record I understand this is just our first glimpse) that have very simple design for a couple of the character classes (fighter and rogue). While more stuff is coming, now is the time to begin discussion of what we think the game needs to look like.
I'm not trying to "edition war", I just want the next iteration of the game to build on the rich history that has come before.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 10:19AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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I agree with both sides of this discussion.
The open skill system and interesting backgrounds are a good thing.
Where the concerns come in are the healing and combat systems and their mechanical issues.
The thing I have noticed is that most of the mechanical critiques aren't against the RP enhancing backgrounds but against mechanical flaws in the combat. This is true from all ends of the spectrum. We have 4th players not happy with the lack of battlefield control right along with 3.X and 2E players.
We have varied ideas of how to solve it but we tend to agree that it should be solved.
Good observation OP, entirely valid on the open non combat elements.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 10:26AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2012
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It also seems counter-intuitive to bash roleplaying as viable enjoyment of the playtest when we're playtesting a roleplaying game. There are no sides to this debate. The roleplay and the mechanics are meant to mesh together for the complete experience. Nothing but roleplay is open storytelling. Nothing but mechanics is a boardgame.
At which point in my post did I bash roleplaying? I agree 100% that RP is the key element to an enjoyable gaming experience.
...
I'm not trying to "edition war", I just want the next iteration of the game to build on the rich history that has come before.
1. Maybe 'bash roleplay' was a strong term. It actually wasn't directed at your response anyway. It was Bone_naga's "...it means we don't allow good players and good RP to be an excuse for poor game mechanics." that drew the comment. The wording felt like a jab to me. Nowhere in the OP's statement does it say they are using good roleplay as an excuse for bad mechanics.
2. Edition warring... Well, see, you and I have been playing D&D since the dawn of freakin' time. And I get the impression that you enjoy bits and pieces of all editions ... like I do. So yeah. There's no warring here...or did I miss a post somewhere? :P
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13 months ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 6:32PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2009
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As such, so far (without any mods) the core 5e seems to not only encourage, but require players to roleplay in order to really enjoy the game. What are your thoughts?
It can be said of any other rpg around. If you do'nt roleplay in 4E, you won't have fun with 4E. Rules are toys for roleplayers - some of us feel better having many or precise toys, some of us prefer more freedom.
There are many roleplayers who did not enjoy the playtest, too. At least me.
I think that the more roleplaying there is at the table during the test, the less the rules were really seen and tested - I mean the less they were important for the "fun" of the particpants. There is a famous playtest around on the internet, where the fighter's player said that he only began to have fun when he stoped "fighting" and began doing "anything else". So he had fun - not because of the way the fighter was implemented, but in spite of it.
I'll confess that it looks exactly like my own memories of old school D&D - we rolepayed in spite of the game system, rather than because of it.
I am not saying that everyone should think as I do - only that some of us make a distinction between RP-created-fun and system-created-fun. The first depends mostly on the people playing, not the game, the other one depends on the game rules themselves. And "we" (if I am not the only one, who knows?) want both kind of fun. We want improvisation ad RP, and we want fun toys too. I've DMed often "special session" with no rules at all, so I don't "need" any system to have fun - but i still nuy good systems because it is even more fun with good rules to toy with 
Some others want RP first, or only, and don't feel interested in the "system derived" kind of fun.
Also, I wonder how much the feedback on the rules themselves will be weighted by the players who roleplayed "around" them. Does "the fighter was fun, I kept improvizing and not doing basic attacks" mean that basic attacks only is a good idea because he had fun ? Or that maybe it is a bad idea, as he had no fun with them, only with his roleplay/impros ? Will his fun be the same in three sessions, or four ? I really don't know ( I know the answer from my point of view, but have no idea what the "majority" can think).
Anyway - cool for those who had fun. Alas for those who, like me, did not. But c'est la vie : we don't all want the same thing from the RPGs we play.
Remember Tunnel Seventeen !
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