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The first battle, DC 15 Wisdom check to not be surprised by the Kobolds, not a single player in the group got (the cleric with the highest wisdom rolled low and failed). So they were surprised. During that round, they got 8 attacks with advantage against them, 7 of which hit. Already, they were hurting. On their turn, they managed to defeat 3 of the kobolds and heal a little. They were attacked 5 more times, still with advantage (group of 4). They killed 3 more. Got two more regular attacks on them which missed, then killed the last two Kobolds. (BTW, we just assumed the players initiatives were in negative numbers because of the -20, is that correct?)

Already they were in serious pain. The did some healing (as much as they could) without thinking it was too devastating. Reading the rules, none of them checked for traps once inside (they did on the way in), so they technically shouldn't have been allowed to roll to see the Pit Trap (see the provided rules for making Perception checks in the playtest, at face value it says unless the players specify a search they automatically fail). They all rolled their wisdom checks because I thought it was ridiculous that there's no passive perception or anything, none of them succeeded. 3 of them failed their dexterity saves, one of the fails was the rogue. Even with the second rank having a lesser DC.

They are then engaged in a battle with the Kobold's in the room (adjacent room) of the pit trap, and killed because they have advantage during the battle (they use their daggers because they won initiative).

To be fair, there were some bad rolls. To be even more fair, a DC 15 at level 1 is less than a 50% of success almost all the time.

I'd appreciate any comments on what may have been played wrong, but overall this left a really bad taste in the players mouths for Next. The rules they didn't mind so much until we actually started playing them. We had to make a house rule within an hour of the game. And at this rate, it will take them weeks in game to clear the place (even worse if we follow the Mike Mearle tweet of healing being level+con). 

Ahh, your first point makes sense. That's my bad.

Your second point however, is playing off my generosity of 50% chance. The clerics have a +2 or +3 on wisdom mod. Really, the only race with an okay chance is the elf. The rest have a 65% chance of failure or worse. In general.

Jun 1, 2012 -- 3:19PM, JayM wrote:

It should. The caves are not supposed to be a single trip dungeon, it is supposed to be mutliple attacks and retreats when injured over days or weeks to clear the caves. The whole thing is very old school and won't play anything like the 3e and 4e adventures.

The lack of some form of passive perception is a problem. The perception and searching rules here are very old school and need updated a bit. 4e's passive perception had huge problems, but I don't want to go back to the party searching 10 ft at a time either.

Ah, I'm relatively new to D&D. I did one 3.5 campaign for a couple months, but it was a third party game (Iron Kingdoms), and then have done mostly 4e the last few years. So that's the perspective I was coming from with my comments on clearing the dungeon. 

Jun 1, 2012 -- 4:16PM, deadworld56 wrote:

I know it doesn't explicitely state this in the playtest packet, but there is nothing at all out of scope allowing passive checks using 10 as your base with their mod. It's tough to do with the elf's keen eyesight, but the baseline of passive checks is entirely permissable as a DM judgment call.

Prior to play, simply make yourself a little notecard with all of the PCs' various passives you think you will need to use and you should be good. 

That's essentially what we're gonna do. Only the fighter has a passive of 15, which I think is pretty funny.

Jun 1, 2012 -- 4:48PM, Arithezoo wrote:

I like secret DM rolls for stuff like this.  It is silly to not assume that the heroes will be constantly on the lookout for traps and hidden monsters.  In fact, the stealth rules specifically say that once the hiding creature could be detected by another creature, that creature makes a Wisdom check.  In other words, you don't have to constantly say, "I'm looking around and listening for hiding creatures."  It is just assumed that you always are; so why not also assume that you are always looking for traps/secret doors/etc too?

I can't quote or share the rules, but if you look at page 7-8 of the "How to Play" document on perception checks, it states specifically that you need to search for thing specifically, after which it says this is specifically important rule because it's supposed to keep the game fair. It suggests you NEED to make your intentions clear, and be specific, or you automatically fail.