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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 12:10AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2005
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All character classes need to be of equal complexity. This includes fighters.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 12:20AM
#22
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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When we say complexity what are we really getting at? Power? Versatility? Actual complexity?
It feels like compexity has become a catch-all phrase for a few different wants.
Help make Combat Mastery happen: If you like the idea of Combat Mastery, as outlined below, for fighters copy it onto your signature and add interesting combat maneuvers to the list. Two new examples could be throat punch or spit in eye.
Combat Mastery: When a Fighter performs combat maneuvers such as bull rush, disarm, sunder, trip, hip toss, eye poke, ball kick, hair drag, blind with sand, slide down banister, swing on chandalier, walk on barrel, use enemy as shield, interpose self in front of arrow trying to kill wizard, intimidate, pick up kobold by the neck, etc, the minimum die result is 10.
Fighter Combat Maneuvers: On a given round the fighter can bull rush, disarm, sunder, trip, hip toss, eye poke, ball kick, hair drag, blind with sand, slide down banister, swing on chandalier, walk on barrel, use enemy as shield, interpose self in front of arrow trying to kill wizard, intimidate, etc, in place of his/her move action. This is a nonattack action that might cause the fighter's opponent to be rendered prone, unarmed, blind for a round, etc, or otherwise grant the fighter advantage or his/her opponent disadvantage as the Fighter sees fit.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 12:22AM
#23
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I guess I understand why people "want more bang for their buck" when it comes to the classes and races they play, but sometimes it's jut not necessary. Look back at some of the Fighteresque classes from history. Conan, Hercules, and my personal favorite... He-Man. They fought battles with their sheer strength and athletic ability. They didn't have the special attacks and the powers that people feel are needed to make the fighter complete.
Really? Conan, the man who could climb up sheer surfaces and shrug off magic through force of will had no special abilities? Hercules, who learned how to use bow and arrow, club, sword, traps, and manual landscaping to complete his labors just relied on his strength?
Fighteresque characters from literature and pop culture aren't one-trick-ponys.
All of which are currently available to a fighter, and no they aren't special abilities and no they aren't one-trick-ponies and that is my point. Current fighters can climb steep cliffs, shrug off magic. They can use any weapon they can wrap their hands around. There are MANY ways to fight a fight and it doesnt always take strength or some special ability. A lot of people seem to think that just because they are a fighter all they can do is swing the weapon they have in their hand and end their turn, which is not the case. I see people complain that the fighter is boring and mundane, and all I am saying is that only if you let him/her be.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 12:29AM
#24
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All character classes need to be of equal complexity. This includes fighters.
When we say complexity what are we really getting at? Power? Versatility? Actual complexity?
It feels like compexity has become a catch-all phrase for a few different wants.
Exactly what shanelwalden said, give some examples. What is it that you are looking for to make them equally complex. I get that people want complex fighters, I would like the options as well. All I am conveying is that they don't always need to be.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 1:34AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2005
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When we say complexity what are we really getting at? Power? Versatility? Actual complexity?
It feels like compexity has become a catch-all phrase for a few different wants.
I am speaking of meaningful options here. All characters need to have more than one meaningful option in a situation; I would say that if you do not have at least 2-3 options on a regular basis, then you probably have a problem, but 10 options is probably too many. This applies to all classes, and all classes should have an equivalent number of options.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 1:40AM
#26
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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All character classes need to be of equal complexity. This includes fighters.
I disagree. Classes should have varying levels of complexity. I don't always want to play a very complex class and some new players have trouble handling complexity.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 1:53AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2005
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All character classes need to be of equal complexity. This includes fighters.
I disagree. Classes should have varying levels of complexity. I don't always want to play a very complex class and some new players have trouble handling complexity.
People want to play the character they want to play, so making some classes more complicated than others doesn't solve this issue at all, because there is nothing more offputting than saying "you're new, you can't play X", regardless of what X is. If the complexity level is too high for new players, then the complexity level of the game needs to be lowered.
If you were going to take this approach, it'd be a better idea to make the wizard the simple class and the fighter the complicated one, given the recent popularity of Harry Potter, but that is neither here nor there.
All classes need to be of approximately equal complexity and viability.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 2:23AM
#28
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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All classes need to be of approximately equal complexity and viability.
It is easy to think that all classes should be of equal complexity. I agree with equal viability. Not in every situation mind you. Some classes should be more viable in combat, some while exploring, some during npc interaction.
Back to equal complexity. It is a fact that equal complexity contributed to turning a huge portion of the player base away from 4E. Given that, it cannot be the best option for 5E.
Shane
Help make Combat Mastery happen: If you like the idea of Combat Mastery, as outlined below, for fighters copy it onto your signature and add interesting combat maneuvers to the list. Two new examples could be throat punch or spit in eye.
Combat Mastery: When a Fighter performs combat maneuvers such as bull rush, disarm, sunder, trip, hip toss, eye poke, ball kick, hair drag, blind with sand, slide down banister, swing on chandalier, walk on barrel, use enemy as shield, interpose self in front of arrow trying to kill wizard, intimidate, pick up kobold by the neck, etc, the minimum die result is 10.
Fighter Combat Maneuvers: On a given round the fighter can bull rush, disarm, sunder, trip, hip toss, eye poke, ball kick, hair drag, blind with sand, slide down banister, swing on chandalier, walk on barrel, use enemy as shield, interpose self in front of arrow trying to kill wizard, intimidate, etc, in place of his/her move action. This is a nonattack action that might cause the fighter's opponent to be rendered prone, unarmed, blind for a round, etc, or otherwise grant the fighter advantage or his/her opponent disadvantage as the Fighter sees fit.
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 2:52AM
#29
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2009
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Plus I'm fairly sure some of their feats of strength are special powers. Like Hercules was half-god or whatevs, it's not like he was some regular dude who worked out all the time.
To be fair, most wizards in literature and myth aren't exactly regular people. Gandalf is a Maiar, Merlin was a cambion, Elminster was the Chosen of the goddess of magic, Raistlin was part god (well, more like a reincarnation of a god that he usurped so he's like his own clone... or something? Dragonlance got kinda weird), the list goes on. This doesn't prevent anyone from saying a garden-variety Wizard should live up or even surpass these examples. When it comes to self-made men in literature and legend, the rogue's the only one who doesn't regularly get divine heritage special abilities (the cleric, of course, doesn't exist at all in myth given he's a mashup of an obscure Crusades figure and Van Helsing).
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 3:10AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2010
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i will repeat myself from other thread...
Seriously, cut the crap of fighter using manuevers by using the contest system...ability score bonus between fighter and the other classes on the playtest are insignificant when you consider the fact that you roll 1d20+ability score mod...a fighter using combat manuevers by contest isn't going to be better than a cleric, rogue or any other class that will have the same ability score array to overlap them...hell there isn't even that big diference between have +3 STR mod and +0 STR mod, when a 1d20 is involved and there is no other bonus...a wizard have almost the same chance as a fighter to make combat manuevers...
Fighters lack any class feature beside +2 to damage rolls...having all armor prof is useless because how bad the armor currently works on the draft. There is nothing the fighter can do that other class can't...and better. The only reason you see fighter using those manuevers is not because they are the best at that or they are the most effective at it, is because the other classes have better things to do with their actions because they do have class features and abilities, so they don't have to waste their turns on completly unreliable contest during combat...they are the 5th wheel of the party...
In order to sell me the crap of "getting creative and using contests for combat manuevers", gimme a reason for it, gimme a bonus when i use contest during combat...gimme a free mba when i succed or beat a contest during combat (cleric get free mba when they heal)...only there you can barely sell me the idea of using contest as a fighter in combat
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