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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 6:36AM
#51
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All the mechanics did was add the weirdness of, "You are forbidden from bribing the guards because you failed to climb over the wall."
The reverse is also wierd.
I chop down a tree to make a battering ram.
I disguise myself as an apple seller.
I know the history of this place.
3 successes, you get in the keep.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 6:38AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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They are a DM tool and should be almost invisible to players.
I thought we never agreed on anything. I think chase scenes work great as skill challenges... the players are somewhat aware of how in the lead they are and so on... they can use whatever skills to impair persuit or find paths that are faster and so on.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 6:40AM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Nyeh lets give out experience for greed... 1xp = 1gp... hurray greed is good.
And every action should be thought of as one action not as part of a goal... sheesh.
Not a team but a bunch of individuals looking for spot light I wins
lolwut?
Well if the baby is going out in the bath water on this one.. might as well regress entirely. Not that buying training and magic items and spells doesnt actually make sense...
To me the skill challenge represents a structure for non combat experience points gain... an encouragement for team work and so on.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 6:47AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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I chop down a tree to make a battering ram.
I disguise myself as an apple seller.
I know the history of this place.
3 successes, you get in the keep.
That is insufficient description and all need to integrate towards the goal... ie describe how they are used in concert. Did the history of the place tell you where the battering ram would do the most good and the apple seller uses his infiltration to distract the guards from where the battering ram is being deployed? Since rolling three successes on three rolls is almost like getting a critical... the elements come together almost accidentally. When he infiltrated he didnt expect to act as a distraction just gather insight to help the rest in.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 6:50AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Mar 18, 2009
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It sounds to me (based on this thread) like the community is pretty divided on the issue of skill challenges based on personal playstyle preferences (e.g. non-combat encounters should be specific skill checks; non-combat should be encounters just like combat; skill challenge structure discourages immersion), and since the stated goal of 5E is supporting as many different playstyles as possible, it seems to me the designers would do well to include a variety of suggested mechanics for running non-combat situations, including revised skill challenge rules.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 7:10AM
#56
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2012
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I think FATE could help them out. The problem I see is that it requires some DM skill to set them up and play them out. I also think that a series of straight skill checks is fine and doesn't always need a skill challenge. I also think that trying to force fit everyone into the challenge in some straightforward way is bad too.
I think there are two types of influencers to a skill challenge
1. Primary
2. Secondary Additive
In a car chase the drivers of the two cars are primary. They roll their rolls every time. The other members of the party in the same car (assume they are trying to escape), can do things that modify the primary roll. For example a streetwise check could lead them to make a sharp turn down a side street and thus improve their chances of getting away. If successful give the primary a +1 on his getaway check. Forget the successes versus the failures. Just increase the distance with a success and reduce it with a failure. Once you get far enough away you are gone. If the chaser gets close enough maybe his passengers start shooting at the lead car.
Now I know all of this is totally possible in 4e. But I don't think they provided nearly enough examples. I'd have done a chapter full of examples of common things and how others could influence them. Maybe the DMG 2 had all this because I stopped before it came out.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 7:13AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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They are a DM tool and should be almost invisible to players.
I thought we never agreed on anything. I think chase scenes work great as skill challenges... the players are somewhat aware of how in the lead they are and so on... they can use whatever skills to impair persuit or find paths that are faster and so on.
lol. Colour me equally surprised.  Yep, I continue to agree... chase scenes do work great as SC and are also a favourite of mine to SC. I always try and make the failures colourful cinematic moments of crashing through market stalls, missteps on shaled rooves and sudden crowds of people ("damn tourists!").
I remember reading that the chase scene is an invention of cinema (Bullitt being the first cinematic car chase), as it is something best told visually with quick cuts. It isn't an invention of literature. That's not to say people don't chase one another in books, its that you don't read the chase in a book as you watch one on the screen.
I think the immersion problem is related to how well the DM disguises the mechanic. If the DM stops the "through the characters' eyes narration" and says: "Right, A Skill Challenge! You need six successes but not 3 failures to convince these pesky merchants..." as if a giant neon sign appeared with glowing bedazzling blinking arrow over the merchant group, flashing a "6:3". Then I think you've ejected the players successfully from the game world.
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I don't have the latest book: how does the the final iteration of the SC differ from its original incarnation? Is there actually much of a difference?
The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.
-Gary Gygax
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 7:20AM
#58
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I also fall into the camp of "looks good on paper" with Skill Challenges. It seems like such an interesting mechanic in theory.
It can be done with a modicum of transparency with DM effort. But it's an uphill battle. Once the players begin to roll the dice they know that they are in a challenge and that 3 failures will spell failure. The whole framework is just out there like a pink elephant.
As always, this can be overcome by skilled players and DMs. But I would be nice if some tweak or modification to this system could make it more natural. I also second a sentiment above that more skills in the game could be helpful.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 7:56AM
#59
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Date Joined:
May 20, 2012
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I say, good riddance to skill challenges. They were unneeded and too mechanical. Skill challenges have always existed in a better form, improvisation. There's no need to force players along a predetermined set of rolls. Not when it's so easy to just "roll" with it. Let the players role play and/or take whatever actions they wish as the situation presents itself, and improv the rolls accordingly. It's much smoother and flows naturally as opposed to the awkward, choppy progression of skill challenge mechanics. Leave skill challenges out of the core and put them in an optional module.
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13 months ago ::
May 23, 2012 - 8:02AM
#60
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Date Joined:
Mar 21, 2009
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I liked skill challenges a lot when I read them, but my first attempts did not go over very well. Later, when life got busy and we switched to playing the Scales of War adventure path, the skill challenges there really blew up in my face. On some of my off time I started reading the Burning Wheel RPG books, and the discusion within these books made me realize the things I was missing from skill challenges. The idea is that a failed check still drives the story forward, but the stated goal and intent of the player do not come to pass in the way the player wanted. Usually it is the intent that does not come out quite correctly.
I'll use the example of "no you can't bribe the guards because you failed to climb the wall." The issue there is failure to climb the wall because the PC failed their climb check. But what if that failed check doesn't mean that they failed to climb the wall, but instead means that did climb the wall BUT there are some further complications, eg, they used the wrong handhold and piece of the wall fell. The thunk of landing rock attracted a nearby guard, who notices traces of where the were on the ground, but no tracks away, so now he is racing to warn the guards at the top that they may have an intruder. (Or if the PCs made mention that they were sure to cover their tracks, the guard looks up in time to see them slip over the wall, perhaps). The intent of the PCs to infiltrate the fortress is now looking a lot more complicated as a result of the failed check, but they still managed to climb the wall so the story continues forward. They might have a much harder time bribing the guards now that they are on alert, or perhaps the bribe will give them a substantial bonus to remaining concealed, but the bribe is going to cost a lot more than it would have...
When I embraced this sort of philosophy, along with the advice (from Chris Perkins, I think?) that skill challenges work best when the players want them (ie. when they say they want to do something that would clearly require more than a simple roll), they became a valuable asset. It gives a notion to how the scene is coming together with each roll of the die bringing them closer to their goal (eg, 3 successes before 3 failures means the task will be resolved before 6 rolls), and helps me pace the narration (and award XP for overcoming it).
So for me, they've covered the whole spectrum. My first attempts failed, and I felt that the first attempts in Scales of War failed even worse. I was ready to give up on them, until I read a completely different RPG system, when it really clicked on how I wanted to use them in my game. I will continue to use the idea of them in 5e, even if there aren't official rules for them. If there are official rules, they will need to be very careful, I think, to make the explanations and philosophy very clear.
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