|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 5:31PM
#91
|
|
|
Spells that you wouldn't normally bat an eye at, you would find out later was actually quite interesting and fun to play with.
Falls under the 'picking the same 3 most powerful spells every level is boring to me' rubric.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 5:33PM
#92
|
|
|
Spells that you wouldn't normally bat an eye at, you would find out later was actually quite interesting and fun to play with.
Falls under the 'picking the same 3 most powerful spells every level is boring to me' rubric.
Unfortunately 'boring' is not a valid reason for some people to not use those spells. It's also very subjective. Winning every encounter with an 'I win' button might be fun for some people...
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 5:47PM
#93
|
|
|
@MechaPilot
Random determination of spells is pretty god-awful.
I like it. I find that in systems where the caster picks the spells, the caster feels like he should pick the best spells. I find this quite boring. Makes replaying the same type of caster boring, too. You always end up with the same small pool of abilities.
By that train of thought, we should force random feats on 3e fighters for the same reasons.
If you need random determination of spells to balance the awesome power of spells, then the system is badly designed.
I enjoyed it, so it seems perfectly designed to me.
And let's not forget that random determination didn't actually balance spells. You had to give non-casters extra magic items to buff them, and you had to gimp casters with randomly determined spells.
I don't believe that it was supposed to balance spells on its own. Spells were also dangerous, interrupting them was easier, you couldn't just rememorize in the middle of an adventure, etc. These little balance bits added up to balanced spellcasters, in my experience. As for "You had to give non-casters extra magic items to buff them..." well, yes. That's the design intent. Complaining about it is like saying "4E casters aren't balanced, because you have to give non-casters a bunch of martial powers to buff them". Well... yeah. That's the design intent.
This is the same problem we've had in discussions before. In case you've forgotten my position, I'll restate it: Classes should be balanced based on the abilities inherent in their class and not on the loot they're lucky enough to find. If loot is a feature required to achieve balance between the classes, then just make it a class feature.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 6:18PM
#94
|
|
|
@MechaPilot: In 1E, fighters getting more loot essentially is a class feature. It's just a feature that's in the DMG, instead of the PHB. As for random feats on 3e fighters? Eh... it's kind of hard to imagine that they'd find the feats in treasure piles like spells - but they could be like 'martial scrolls' that let the fighters learn new techniques. I could see it. I think it's actually been proposed before, maybe in a Dragon article?
But no, I personally wouldn't do that - because I like that the fighter feels different from the magic-user, so I don't want him to work the same. I like that he gets power from magical equipment, and that magical equipment is quite different from the magical equipment a magic-user gets it from - but in the end, it's all stuff found in the game world. I like this style of play. You don't. People like different things. News at 11.
I can totally understand arguing for things you like about D&D to be included in DDN. What I don't understand (actually, I understand it, I just think it's selfish), is when people use contrived arguments to try to keep the D&D stuff that others like, out.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 7:13PM
#95
|
|
|
I can totally understand arguing for things you like about D&D to be included in DDN. What I don't understand (actually, I understand it, I just think it's selfish), is when people use contrived arguments to try to keep the D&D stuff that others like, out.
I'm not arguing that randomized spells shouldn't be an option. I'm a more options kind of person, not a less options one.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 8:38PM
#96
|
|
|
If all spells are balanced, doesn't random spell selection as an option work just fine for those who want it while not harming those who don't?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 9:13PM
#97
|
|
|
If all spells are balanced, doesn't random spell selection as an option work just fine for those who want it while not harming those who don't?
Yes, it does "work just fine for those who want it while not harming those who don't." In fact, an option for random selection of imbalanced spells will also "work just fine for those who want it while not harming those who don't." The problem comes into place when random selection starts being used to justify imbalanced spells being the default.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 12, 2012 - 9:17PM
#98
|
|
|
If all spells are balanced, doesn't random spell selection as an option work just fine for those who want it while not harming those who don't?
Yes, it does "work just fine for those who want it while not harming those who don't." In fact, an option for random selection of imbalanced spells will also "work just fine for those who want it while not harming those who don't." The problem comes into place when random selection starts being used to justify imbalanced spells being the default.
Heh ... I just realized ...
Imbalanced spells with a random chance of getting them ... is how Magic boosters work. So, 1e was more like M:tG than 4e ever was.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 13, 2012 - 1:05AM
#99
|
|
|
Well, 2e has the same system, remember - and we know (I think) that Wizards of the Coast was the name of the owners' D&D group - and that's during the 2e days.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 13, 2012 - 5:29AM
#100
|
Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
|
No I threw it out when I finally DMd after being a player and seeing how badly it felt too lose the spell lotto spending level after level feeling useless and similar things as well as seeing others who either won the lottery or had dms help with it walk all over everything. The higher level experiences I had were useless non spell casters, not ones fixed with awesome magic equipment... or extremely liberal interpretation of engagement like he has professed.
Interesting thought throwing it out before deciding it was broken? that was your assumption?
Okay... so let me see if I got this straight?
It doesnt seem your goal in the slightest, assuming when somebody said they threw it out... that there criticisms of it were after they "threw it out" is very much a pot shot.
Earlier on in the thread, you mentioned something about magic users in 1e having a lot of abilities and could do a whole lot of other things. You keep talking about the "I win" button and mentioned in the past things about MU's being invulnerable with "Fly" and "Protection from Normal Missiles" and such.
No I havent enumerated my own system changes - When I say I threw it out I basically mean from the ground up, including changing things to using mana points/life force expenditure, the kind of fix you dont consider yourself playing the same system anymore... at some point after I DMd it really wasnt D&D.
My dissatisfaction with D&D magic was as a player in others campaigns some may have ignored advice none of which seemed house ruled, they may have made no bigger mistake than becoming more generous, with magic user treasure because low level mus often sucked.(unless you won that lotto)
To avoid a superman feel the spells need to not have the flavor of superman powers in the first place I just dont think they did it.
Transforming in to a raven inorder to fly (utterly unable to attack), or riding on a unenchantable flying goat which an enemy attack can send you flying to the ground and or carried by dangerous wind elementals which require you constantly controlling them.
Note after you make it physically dangerous to fly because you are being carried by capricious air elementals, and the buffeting about possibly taking incidental damage from tornado like debree restrict casting in flight, and make various enchantments incompatible with one another thus preventing combos, and make certain spells including flying only achievable via caster specialization,It can get very complex ... but quits feeling quite so much like superheros.
My very first comment was as much about the flavor as anything else.
To make it restricted enough not to function like superman they need limits associated. Spending only one fight a day as superman is not a limit if you only fight once a day an occurance true in many fantasy stories.
|
|
|
