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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 12:56AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Can anyone explain the logic behind the omission of a crafting system?
It seems to me that the abscence of a crafting system made no sense at all. What problem did it solve for anyone exactly by excluding it? Had it been added all you had to do as a GM was say "no, not using it". Hence easily serving both those that want it and those that dont. By omitting they basically unescessarly alienated part of the community who wants and expects the mechanic. It created so much turmoil and anger about it, created all sorts of work for those that wanted to include it in the game by basically having to design it themselves. Why exclude?
And they wonder why their is a fracture in the community.. HELLO....!!! Here is yet another example or "what the hell where you thinking!"
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 1:15AM
#22
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I think they know how they fractured the community this time around. They've alluded to it in some of the posts. They built a game that is very tightly focused on satisfying one particular type of D&D player. You can see it - several of the people who like it say "I never liked D&D before" or "Before this, I hated D&D". That's an indicator that something very significant has changed in the game - if you're attracting people who hated D&D... you pretty obviously made a game that isn't very much like previous D&D. If you had, these people wouldn't like it. So, obviously, by making a game that satisfies a lot of people who hated D&D, you alienated a lot of people who liked it.
Hopefully, DDN will provide a big tent, and both groups can play under it. I'm mostly interested in seeing ideas on how to make that work.
And on that note:
Yes. There should be some item crafting rules. They would obviously make a fine rules module - or several. People like them, there is absolutely no reason other than selfish malice on the part of people who don't like them, to keep them out.
But I'm not interested in them for my game. Not mundane items, not magical items. Characters in my campaigns are generally adventuring, studying, training, or partying. They're not craftsmen or professionals. Crafting magical items can be done - but it's a unique endeavor each time.
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 6:01AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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Construction rules are a part of the game I love, from castles to magic items. I'm all for keeping them.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 6:19AM
#24
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I don't mind magic item crafting rules, so long as they make the creation of magic items difficult and expensive. I'm not a fan of having a party make so much magic that it reduces the special-ness of the treasure they find.
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 7:36AM
#25
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Can anyone explain the logic behind the omission of a crafting system?
No crafting system was omitted. It wasn't included with the Skill System so as to avoid forcing people to have to choose to be proficient in one of two pillars. It was included in Backgrounds and in Martial Practices. The real problem was that it wasn't included in the initial books. You had to wait until Player's Handbook 2.
I would hope that a new crafting system, such as it is, is included from the get-go, but still not included in any system in which you are forced to choose between combat proficiency and noncombat proficiency.
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 9:21AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jan 13, 2012
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Can anyone explain the logic behind the omission of a crafting system?
It seems to me that the abscence of a crafting system made no sense at all. What problem did it solve for anyone exactly by excluding it? Had it been added all you had to do as a GM was say "no, not using it". Hence easily serving both those that want it and those that dont. By omitting they basically unescessarly alienated part of the community who wants and expects the mechanic. It created so much turmoil and anger about it, created all sorts of work for those that wanted to include it in the game by basically having to design it themselves. Why exclude?
And they wonder why their is a fracture in the community.. HELLO....!!! Here is yet another example or "what the hell where you thinking!"
I think you make an excellent point Xguild, at a bare minimum I would like to see an intricate magic item crafting system viable from day one in 5e. To me this is a necessary part of D&D and not an optional piece. I resent and oppose the idea that anything someone liked before 4e was bad and may only somehow be included in 5e as an optional rules module. There is a presumptive argument that 4e is somehow the good default rules set. There are a lot of these default 4e ideas that I find weird, faster is always better fluff is always bad, OMG someone said you cannot do something quick balance it within an inch of it’s life. There are going to be some 4e carry over rules in 5e that I am going to have to live with, and guess what there may be some rules in the core product from older additions that others may have to live with.
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 10:45AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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Although crafting adds 'roleplaying' feel, level 2+ PC's can pretty much get as much non-magical, mundane gear as they want.
Really good post, especially this thought. I don't see the point in detailed (and likely totally arbitrary and inaccurate) rules for activities that will not occur once the PCs have opened a few treasure chests. Easy to use systems for signature items, improvised traps and siege equipment, and rafts built from driftwood make a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure time and cost should be at the heart of those systems, however. PCs quickly cease to be among the 99%, and rules need to take that into account.
I want to second this. With the ever-present exception of 'making arrows in the field' or 'slap together a makeshift raft,' I've not seen a need to spend time making anything non-magical. At least in 3e, anything that was otherwise out of your price-range would require a ton of down-time to craft - time you could have spent adventuring to gain the extra loot necessary to just buy such an item outright. For things that would require days or weeks worth of skilled labor, it'd probably just be easier to #1) check to see if the PC's background indicates the proper skill to make such a thing, and #2) check online resources to see how long creating such an item takes in real life, if necessary.
As far as magic item creation goes, I feel it works best when the basic model is incredibly simple (spend money equal to market price = you made the item!), but modules could complex it up. I do prefer item crafting being in the hands of anybody with the ritual, ever since reading one of the Drizzt books where he watches his dwarf companion - not a spellcaster, mind - forge a magical hammer.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 11:02AM
#28
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My favorite 3e class was the Artificer.
The class just wasn't the same in 4e.
Yes, we need to be able to craft our own magical and mundane items.
And the thing is, we could have done so in 3e much more easily if they had just published the rules they use to make items with instead of keeping it secret to use as filler in splatbooks. Back in the day I reverse engineered the armor formula here on the boards, and that inspired someone else to reverse engineer the weapons. In a few days we could make any kind of weapon or armor you wanted and have it be pretty much perfectly balanced with the PHB gear because we found the formulas and rules that the devs used.
Just put that stuff in the books and be done with it.
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 3:49PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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My favorite 3e class was the Artificer.
The class just wasn't the same in 4e.
Yes, we need to be able to craft our own magical and mundane items.
And the thing is, we could have done so in 3e much more easily if they had just published the rules they use to make items with instead of keeping it secret to use as filler in splatbooks. Back in the day I reverse engineered the armor formula here on the boards, and that inspired someone else to reverse engineer the weapons. In a few days we could make any kind of weapon or armor you wanted and have it be pretty much perfectly balanced with the PHB gear because we found the formulas and rules that the devs used.
Just put that stuff in the books and be done with it.
Well said!
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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1 year ago ::
May 11, 2012 - 3:59PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Feb 28, 2012
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Crafting... hhhmm... Not a big fan of crafting. Usually this is what happens with crafting:
1. The players learn that they can make more money by just churning out magic items and selling them, than by adventuring.
or
2. They players exploit the system to churn out so many magic items that they unbalance the game.
I really do prefer that most crafting be done by NPCs. I don't have a problem with a PC class having some sort of ritual that allows them to make some stuff, but keep it simple (and expensive to force them to adventure to pay for it).
No one should be churning out rings of invisibility or holy avengers. One problem with 3.5 was that it made it, first off too complicated to calculate, and second too easy for players to make stuff. Because it was so easy to make stuff, they had to make the good stuff really expensive, so expensive that they effectively took it out of the game (how many rings of invisibility did a group find in 1st or 2nd edition, how many were found in 3rd?... none). By the time the group could afford to own a ring of invisibility, they were fighting creatures that aren't hindered by the +20 to hide that it gives (+40 if you didn't move). The rogue of the same level, had a +30 to their spot roll.
In my opinion, magic item creation should either be the stuff done by mighty NPCs behind the curtain, or the focus of the campaign requiring a long quest, then expensive ritual to create the item.
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