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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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June 11, 2012 8:02 PM PDT
Avatar: The Last Airbender - amazing animation on Nick. They're doing a more teenager-oriented followup series now called The Legend of Korra, which is also very strong. Lots of actual story and plot.Although, actually, that pose is a bit on the pose
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professordaddy
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June 11, 2012 8:04 PM PDT
I agree sex sells, at least to a certain market segment which had been the traditional core audience for tabletop rpgs. BUT...1.) Heroin sells too. I don't see anyone suggesting WotC should tape a free hit to the front of every Player's Handbook to
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Kishri
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June 11, 2012 8:06 PM PDT
Avatar: The Last Airbender - amazing animation on Nick. They're doing a more teenager-oriented followup series now called The Legend of Korra, which is also very strong. Lots of actual story and plot.Although, actually, that pose is a bit on the pose
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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June 11, 2012 8:09 PM PDT
Avatar: The Last Airbender - amazing animation on Nick. They're doing a more teenager-oriented followup series now called The Legend of Korra, which is also very strong. Lots of actual story and plot.Although, actually, that pose is a bit on the pose
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Dragonspirited
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June 11, 2012 8:28 PM PDT
I actually love the look of the old 1st edition stuff the best, regardless of gender. I don't imagine it will be quite on the scale of Boris Vallejo (quick google search there will show you some classic fantasy art). It really depends on the comfor
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DavidArgall
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June 11, 2012 11:25 PM PDT
Ignoring the legal consequences, and the economic [that the hit would cost more than the profit on the book, and possibly more than the gross price of the book], such a campaign would have way more than a "few sales". PH would be #1 on all best sell
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House88
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June 12, 2012 12:12 AM PDT
Sexy ladies are everywhere. I seriously don't think the art inside the books will change sales at all.Maybe the cover and posters.And you can have sexy ladies without alienating female gamers.
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Zerozobbb
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June 12, 2012 12:40 AM PDT
A generation of trying? I must have missed that. Fantasy art is very stylistically different from when I started out - and I do kinda miss Elmore's art for the red box, for example - but the content hasn't changed much, as the eschergirls site sadly
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Zerozobbb
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June 12, 2012 12:48 AM PDT
I agree! I am all for sexy ladies. And sexy men - thank you to the poster who found those stills of Hawkeye in Avengers. If anybody has mistaken me for a puritan, let me set them straight: I'm anything but.Sexy is fine, it's objectified I'm objecting
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lokiare
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June 12, 2012 1:05 AM PDT
I would appreciate if you never did, to anyone, you make these boards a drag for me (spamming them all up, IMO), and I'm not a "him", I am a scorching hot transsexual.As for the original topic, I would like a variety, like in real life. [/quote]What
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lokiare
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June 12, 2012 1:14 AM PDT
I agree, a female humanoid dog shouldn't have two breasts, she should have six or eight. [/quote]Is there any way that we can get people to sblock their pictures so that we don't mess up the formatting of the forum thread?Its pretty simple above you
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lokiare
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June 12, 2012 1:19 AM PDT
I did like the picture of the female shaman holding the poisonous viper. To me that picture has some degree of passion to it and is sexy without having sex be the main intent. For the other pictures I like the female warrior from Diablo but don&rsq
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Crimson_Concerto
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June 12, 2012 1:30 AM PDT
When it doubt, there are zero downsides to using the singular "they". Is has the side effect of sending people who believe that "they" must be plural into a blind rage, but I don't consider that to be a down side.
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House88
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June 12, 2012 3:28 AM PDT
I agree! I am all for sexy ladies. And sexy men - thank you to the poster who found those stills of Hawkeye in Avengers. If anybody has mistaken me for a puritan, let me set them straight: I'm anything but.Sexy is fine, it's objectified I'm objecting
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 3:33 AM PDT
1) In your example number one you are directly comparing showing/selling sexiness to selling heroine? Really? I am not going to say anything unless I am accused of falesly labeling someone as Puritanical.....sexiness=heroine...whew!2)Okay, look I w
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Kishri
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June 12, 2012 6:05 AM PDT
I agree, a female humanoid dog shouldn't have two breasts, she should have six or eight. [/quote]Is there any way that we can get people to sblock their pictures so that we don't mess up the formatting of the forum thread?Its pretty simple above you
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Sephyrill
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June 12, 2012 6:32 AM PDT
maybe we should separate discussing potential sales and personal preferences in our posts. When coming to sales, we can only speculate, we don't have any evidence and I guess that Wizards won't spend their money on the question whether more/less sexy
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frothsof
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June 12, 2012 6:34 AM PDT
haha amen
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Dewi
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June 12, 2012 8:19 AM PDT
It may just be me but there's a lot of 4e art that's a lot worse than anything in the AD&D main trilogy. (There's a piece of art in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide that is execrable and pointless, but that's later.) Morgan Ironwolf, from the old Mo
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Crimson_Concerto
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June 12, 2012 9:01 AM PDT
Only if they belong to a woman. ;)
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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June 12, 2012 10:00 AM PDT
Right, but what's the core audience? Can you appeal to non-core audiences without offending the core one?Say on the cover of PHB Next, there are one of the following two possible covers:A beautiful woman in impractical clothing, holding a sword incor
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 12, 2012 10:19 AM PDT
Even in that era, where it was most prevalent, tight lacing was never actually all that prevalent. It's a hugely exaggerated phenomenon. I've seen women fight* all day in corsets that (other than using some modern materials when there's no real reaso
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Lugnut171
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June 12, 2012 10:37 AM PDT
You know what I don't get why this is even an argument. It almost seems like people want to keep offending a sizable amount of the population and keep them from actually looking at the books. Mommy was an orc basically has the right idea, you don't
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AnthonyJ
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June 12, 2012 11:30 AM PDT
Okay, so I decided to look at recent D&D novels. Running through a list, a lot don't have any women at all on the cover, but enough do that we can make comments (you may need to hunt on amazon.com to find images big enough to see). I only found seven
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Irennan
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June 12, 2012 11:37 AM PDT
She's a Yuan-Ti, not a woman.
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AnthonyJ
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June 12, 2012 11:41 AM PDT
While that may make the stance physically possible, it still doesn't make the stance a good idea.
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Irennan
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June 12, 2012 11:46 AM PDT
Well, I don't think that stance was used to make her show her breasts and backside at the same time because, you know, she doesn't have the latter. However, I agree that it is not a good idea.
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 12, 2012 12:42 PM PDT
For kicks, some images that exemplify the range of images I'd like to see for female art in DDN. Spoiler:
Show
I assume she's some kind of nature spirit, so I'd be fine if she was nude.and some more! Spoiler:
Show
how many urban rogues
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 12, 2012 12:49 PM PDT
When it doubt, there are zero downsides to using the singular "they". Is has the side effect of sending people who believe that "they" must be plural into a blind rage, but I don't consider that to be a down side.[/quote]Or just annoyance, due to a p
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Mournblade94
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June 12, 2012 1:24 PM PDT
When it doubt, there are zero downsides to using the singular "they". Is has the side effect of sending people who believe that "they" must be plural into a blind rage, but I don't consider that to be a down side.[/quote]Or just annoyance, due to a p
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Qmark
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June 12, 2012 1:27 PM PDT
The fun part is that generic "he", singular "they", humans as "it", and every variant of "he or she" all annoy someone.
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 12, 2012 1:51 PM PDT
Yeh. the whole debate is innane, IMO. I seriously can't take seriously (lol) the idea that changing what pronouns we use will change anything else, ever. That's just not how language works.
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AnthonyJ
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June 12, 2012 1:59 PM PDT
Hey, you left out several variants, such as deliberately using 'she' for persons of unknown gender, simply alternating between 'he' and 'she' through the body of the text, restructuring phrases so that 'one' becomes an acceptable pronoun, ... Not tha
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Tevish_Szat
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June 12, 2012 3:01 PM PDT
Singular "they" is still kinda sloppy. I'm not strictly opposed to it, but I sort of like the graceful out 3rd took, always referring to the "Iconic" example (So, for instance, fighters and clerics got male pronouns from Tordek and Jozan, wizards an
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professordaddy
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June 12, 2012 6:04 PM PDT
Actually, there has been plenty of research proving conclusively that language works *precisely* like that. People who read "he" being used as if it were "gender neutral" behave as though it were, in fact, gender restricted...because it is. Would y
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 6:49 PM PDT
If we want to separate potential sales from personal preference that is fine with me. While we don’t have any evidence on whether more or less sexy art will increase/decrease sales we can look at other games and speculative fiction based mediu
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 7:04 PM PDT
A sizeable amount of the population is not offended by the "sexy" art of DnD, because the images present in the media via a variety of mediums usually out does what is presented in DnD as being sexy and what is acceptable. The 2E artwork of Larry El
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 7:19 PM PDT
I am not responding to the part about Victorian era dress not because it isn't valid but because in all honesty it is a time period in history that I really have no interest in and am not attracted to in any way.SJ's outfit wasn't all that sexy? Well
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 7:31 PM PDT
Sure, I’m sure you can appeal to the core audience on some level without offending non-core audience, but I have to ask you what is the non-core audience? Again, I don’t think feminist academecians who are the main people crying about &ld
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professordaddy
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June 12, 2012 9:17 PM PDT
Fallstorm, you've still not answered the key objection: who and how does it hurt to stick with non offensive images? Even assuming 90% of potential players are completely unaffected by the more salacious images...why include them? Who needs them, and
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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June 12, 2012 9:22 PM PDT
I MIGHT concede to not having it on the cover not having it in the books at all I think is travesty and one dimensional, and again I am not even arguing the majority or half of the images have to been in that style, but you are telling me 1-2 even i
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 9:25 PM PDT
Ah, the last cry of the desperate whose argument about comparing sex to heroine was already rebuked. The name's Fallstorm. I know you can read so the misspelling is intentional. Personal attacks are a violation of the CoC. Just like the S&S genre
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 9:46 PM PDT
First, I don't think the art of objectifying so the premise anymore so than everyone in society is "objectified" to a large extent so the actual premise that you argued from I reject prima facie. As far as to what "objectified" art would bring 1) se
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professordaddy
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June 12, 2012 10:12 PM PDT
Actually, I'm reading the forums on a phone and honestly couldn't read your handle. I'll edit it when I'm back on a computer.But no, the question hasn't been answered. At all. Given that the more inclusive art style alienates nobody, why go for th
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Kishri
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June 12, 2012 10:35 PM PDT
I can see where you are coming from, but I don't get how you think you are being "more inclusive."Seems to me, you want to exclude material that "might" be offensive in some way. That is exclusive. And for those who likes the current art, you are a
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 10:46 PM PDT
Every word of your post is spelled perfectly but my handle happened to be misspelled to "failstorm". Come on, dude. Man up. At any rate, moving off that if we withheld bits of entertainment because of the ire it might draw no matter how small the s
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professordaddy
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June 12, 2012 10:49 PM PDT
Taking out the offensive material does not exclude anyone other than those who demand that the product include that offensive material...and those are just the people who*should*be excluded from the hobby. And arguing that D&D art has, historically,
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 10:51 PM PDT
I can see where you are coming from, but I don't get how you think you are being "more inclusive."Seems to me, you want to exclude material that "might" be offensive in some way. That is exclusive. And for those who likes the current art, you are a
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Kishri
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June 12, 2012 11:00 PM PDT
So, you are going to tell me that I can't eat cupcakes now? OK, that response is pure Hyperbole, but it serves the point. Who are you tell me what I can eat or not? To be sure cup cakes can make some people fat, but I am not fat, so since they mig
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Fallstorm
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June 12, 2012 11:02 PM PDT
So, if you like classic Sword and Sorcery fiction, if you like classic TSR artist like Elmore and his drawings you should be excluded from the hobby? This is the direction of DnD Next? So, WOTC doesn't want my money or the money of people who likes
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Kishri
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June 12, 2012 11:04 PM PDT
I can see where you are coming from, but I don't get how you think you are being "more inclusive."Seems to me, you want to exclude material that "might" be offensive in some way. That is exclusive. And for those who likes the current art, you are a
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AnthonyJ
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June 13, 2012 1:08 AM PDT
I'm pretty sure you don't need D&D books to find sexy pictures of women. You are, after all, on the internet.A significant issue here is the real purpose of art in a gaming book. Assuming 5th has the traditional PHB/DMG/MM/module/worldbook split, the
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DavidArgall
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June 13, 2012 1:37 AM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 13, 2012 1:56 AM PDT
I am not responding to the part about Victorian era dress not because it isn't valid but because in all honesty it is a time period in history that I really have no interest in and am not attracted to in any way.SJ's outfit wasn't all that sexy? Well
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 13, 2012 2:03 AM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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Kishri
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June 13, 2012 2:30 AM PDT
I'm pretty sure you don't need D&D books to find sexy pictures of women. You are, after all, on the internet. A significant issue here is the real purpose of art in a gaming book...[/quote]I find it funny that me saying that the current art of D&D is
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 2:52 AM PDT
What? you mean a game where a 'spirit guide' grants you powers (classical definition of witchcraft in Church circles), where you can summon demons to fight on your behalf, where you faek worship of made up pagan gods (and sometimes not so made up. i.
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 2:56 AM PDT
If they are too boring it will hurt a lot of people. Many will like the images just for the shock value...
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Zerozobbb
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June 13, 2012 2:57 AM PDT
This. This a thousand times.I think the people who will be upset if we ensure the art remains credible and not gratuitously offensive are a smaller minority than those who will be encouraged by that approach. But I wouldn't be in favour of marketing
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 3:06 AM PDT
So, you are going to tell me that I can't eat cupcakes now? OK, that response is pure Hyperbole, but it serves the point. Who are you tell me what I can eat or not? To be sure cup cakes can make some people fat, but I am not fat, so since they mig
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 3:12 AM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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Zerozobbb
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June 13, 2012 3:17 AM PDT
There isn't arsenic in absinthe. There's thujone, and a bunch of other stuff I'd rather not consume because (based on past experience) it gives me hallucinations - but not accretive poisons like arsenic. But over here in Europe, we can get absinthe.
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Kishri
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June 13, 2012 3:36 AM PDT
So, you are going to tell me that I can't eat cupcakes now? OK, that response is pure Hyperbole, but it serves the point. Who are you tell me what I can eat or not? To be sure cup cakes can make some people fat, but I am not fat, so since they mig
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 3:49 AM PDT
There isn't arsenic in absinthe. There's thujone, and a bunch of other stuff I'd rather not consume because (based on past experience) it gives me hallucinations - but not accretive poisons like arsenic. But over here in Europe, we can get absinthe.
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 3:50 AM PDT
So, you are going to tell me that I can't eat cupcakes now? OK, that response is pure Hyperbole, but it serves the point. Who are you tell me what I can eat or not? To be sure cup cakes can make some people fat, but I am not fat, so since they mig
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Kishri
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June 13, 2012 3:52 AM PDT
Too late, my mind is already fractured.
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 4:11 AM PDT
That's what I said.I was seeing a doctor a while back and they handed me a survey about mental issues. I asked if it was to see if I was crazy, and they said yeah. I handed them back the survey and told them "I'll save you the trouble I'm completely
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Sephyrill
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June 13, 2012 5:09 AM PDT
not so much a joke over here, I can assure. Well, sometimes I really fail to understand how some people can be so black and white dichotome in discussions. This isn't puritan England vs. Hugh Heffner's little playground. This is not Life and death an
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 5:46 AM PDT
not so much a joke over here, I can assure. Well, sometimes I really fail to understand how some people can be so black and white dichotome in discussions. This isn't puritan England vs. Hugh Heffner's little playground. This is not Life and death an
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Zerozobbb
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June 13, 2012 5:52 AM PDT
That's a fascinating unsupported opinion. Of course there's such a thing as business ethics. It's frequently neglected and traduced, but that doesn't make it non-existent. How is your willingness to ignore it different from the willingness of corpora
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 5:59 AM PDT
That's a fascinating unsupported opinion. Of course there's such a thing as business ethics. It's frequently neglected and traduced, but that doesn't make it non-existent. How is your willingness to ignore it different from the willingness of corpora
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Dewi
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June 13, 2012 6:02 AM PDT
D&D could publish an optional rule saying that female characters must all be lower level than the male characters. That would also be true to Howard's Conan stories. Or an optional system in which male characters have a manliness rating which they
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Zerozobbb
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June 13, 2012 6:04 AM PDT
'Optional' is not the same as 'non-existent' - as I hope we all know from discussions of D&DN's modules.And where, exactly, is it the law that executives must show profits every quarter or be dismissed? Because it certainly isn't the case here in the
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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June 13, 2012 6:27 AM PDT
That's a fascinating unsupported opinion. Of course there's such a thing as business ethics. It's frequently neglected and traduced, but that doesn't make it non-existent. How is your willingness to ignore it different from the willingness of corpora
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wrecan
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June 13, 2012 7:40 AM PDT
I remember you, Fallstorm. I remember that our problems were mostly that you engaged in inappropriate personal commentary, lacing your posts with snark and sarcasm that invariably diminished the conversation. If you've changed your posting style, I
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professordaddy
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June 13, 2012 10:59 AM PDT
Just so this topic can finally be put to bed, with a stake through its heart:All the people arguing that sexist imagery is no problem, that it doesn't effect you, that it's perfectly ok because so much of society condones it: you're wrong. Conclusiv
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Crimson_Concerto
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June 13, 2012 11:10 AM PDT
For what it's worth, I'm just popping back into say that professordaddy is completely right. That lack of diversity in portrayal of women and other demographic groups leads to objectification, stereotypng, prejudice, discrimination, and other inequal
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DavidArgall
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June 13, 2012 1:35 PM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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Zerozobbb
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June 13, 2012 1:51 PM PDT
But that's just it. It doesn't. 'Sex sells' is a lazy caricature of how marketing and advertising operate.But don't let simple things like my professional experience in the field get in the way of your baseless posturing.Z.
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Crimson_Concerto
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June 13, 2012 1:52 PM PDT
It doesn't at all come down to saying that customers don't want it. And even if it did (and even if "sex sells" were universally applicable, which, again, it has been scientifically proven not to be), what the customer wants and what's good for them
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Lugnut171
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June 13, 2012 2:04 PM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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Dewi
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June 13, 2012 2:06 PM PDT
Think of it like this. The idea that you can fool yourself or other people into believing something by using a word that has two different meanings first in one meaning and then in another similiar but crucially different meaning is uncontroversial,
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Lugnut171
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June 13, 2012 2:19 PM PDT
Sadly Prof I think all your work looking that up is wasted (while I guess you didn't do a ton of searching, but looks like a lot of typing). Proof won't matter because in the end it comes down to the fact that some people value the old style of art
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 2:29 PM PDT
'Optional' is not the same as 'non-existent' - as I hope we all know from discussions of D&DN's modules.And where, exactly, is it the law that executives must show profits every quarter or be dismissed? Because it certainly isn't the case here in the
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professordaddy
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June 13, 2012 2:35 PM PDT
Lokiare,that's not an "article." It's an editorial...and it's absolutely wrong. The author's claim that businesses are "legally bound" to deliver profits, and only that,is simply untrue. It's a straw-man of laissez-faire capitalism which only ever
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 2:35 PM PDT
That's a fascinating unsupported opinion. Of course there's such a thing as business ethics. It's frequently neglected and traduced, but that doesn't make it non-existent. How is your willingness to ignore it different from the willingness of corpora
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 2:40 PM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 2:46 PM PDT
Here's a law case where it was ruled that a corporation must remain profitableIts true. Corporations are required by law to be profitable...
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professordaddy
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June 13, 2012 2:57 PM PDT
Sorry, once again you're citing an editorial as though it were an article. If you actually read the judge's opinion, he notes very clearly:"The legal conclusions in this Opinion only relate to whether Jim and Craig breached the fiduciary duties they
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wrecan
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June 13, 2012 3:28 PM PDT
Since the entire e-Bay decision is a sideshow, I'm putting it in spoiler blocks
Show
I have no idea how that E-Bay decision is supposed to stand for the idea that the law requires corporations to remain profitable. Here's what the decision is
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Kishri
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June 13, 2012 3:41 PM PDT
Well, if all that is true, then we have a serious problem. If the perceived sexism in D&D's art is so harmful, then its outright glorification and obsession with violence must be truly destructive.By your logic, all combat in D&D should be removed,
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 13, 2012 5:27 PM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 13, 2012 5:35 PM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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lokiare
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June 13, 2012 5:36 PM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 13, 2012 5:42 PM PDT
To extend your analogy a little. Cupcakes sell in massive amounts. "Healthy" feeds stay unbought on the shelves.[/quote]That's not actually terribly accurate. Healthy food sells extremely well, especially factoring in it's generally higher cost, sho
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DoctorBadWolf
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June 13, 2012 5:46 PM PDT
Well, if all that is true, then we have a serious problem. If the perceived sexism in D&D's art is so harmful, then its outright glorification and obsession with violence must be truly destructive.By your logic, all combat in D&D should be removed,
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AnthonyJ
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June 13, 2012 5:46 PM PDT
People say all kinds of things, but factory farming works the way it does for a reason: either it produces lower cost per pound of product, or it produces a more appealing product that can be sold for more.
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Kishri
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June 13, 2012 6:00 PM PDT
[/quote]Just to interject real quick, that's not how the brain works. It does not respond to all stimuli in the same way. The fact (and it is a fact) that sexist imagery has a direct impact on mindset does not, in fact, mean that violent imagery has
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Mommy_was_an_Orc
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June 13, 2012 7:11 PM PDT
That's a fascinating unsupported opinion. Of course there's such a thing as business ethics. It's frequently neglected and traduced, but that doesn't make it non-existent. How is your willingness to ignore it different from the willingness of corpora
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crazy_monkey
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June 13, 2012 7:14 PM PDT
Howdy folks,This thread has now veered way off topic so I'll be closing it.Thanks.
