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Locked: What kind of female character art do you want to see in the D&D Next books?
1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 5:08AM #1
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,625
Due to Astrid's Parlor shutting down next week, I'm asking this here.

What kind of female character art do you want to see in the D&D Next books?

We've had a lot of discussions about what kind of female art is acceptable, and what kind is not, and why in other threads. Now its time to discuss it in a way and place where the developers can see what they did wrong in previous editions and what they did right.

Feel free to post examples (because if they are owned by WotC they will be easy to use in the books).

Please post an image and explain why its ok or not ok, and why you want to see it in the books or why you don't want to see it in the books.
Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 6:05AM #2
Webster
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May 5, 2012 -- 5:32AM, lokiare wrote:

Someone started one of those post art of sexy women threads in the art part of D&DN...

When will they learn that women are not a thing to be objectified?




Perhaps you shouldn't have started the thread, then.

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Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!).

It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity....

In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously.

For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
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1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 6:10AM #3
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,625

May 5, 2012 -- 6:05AM, Webster wrote:

May 5, 2012 -- 5:32AM, lokiare wrote:

Someone started one of those post art of sexy women threads in the art part of D&DN...

When will they learn that women are not a thing to be objectified?




Perhaps you shouldn't have started the thread, then.




I was being sarcastic, as that forum is full of sarcastic quips and quotes...

Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 8:53AM #4
ADHadh
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2007
Posts: 5,728
All three 4e PHBs, including the alternate art for PHB1 (the one with the Tiefling).

I am also a fan of those two:
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I am one of those rare people satisfied by D&D current artwork.
Motto - Don't Damn Me, Guns N' Roses

http://adhadh.deviantart.com/ - my dA page
adhadh.png
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1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 1:59PM #5
sfdragon
Date Joined: May 8, 2004
Posts: 10,321
btw your definition of objectified is a personal oppinion.

as for me.

well I dont care to see any scale mail bikinies thats for sure.
 flesh is alright even if its in an impractical location    
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
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1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 2:26PM #6
beldinme
Date Joined: Mar 2, 2012
Posts: 450
Might I suggest a rule of thumb.

Don't draw something that you wouldn't want a wife or a 12 year old girl with "body image" issues to see.Wink

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1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 2:46PM #7
Dewi
Date Joined: Sep 29, 2008
Posts: 478
Axiom: the same standards should apply to female characters as to male characters.

Principle One: the character shouldn't be in the pose or clothes they're in just so that we want to look at the picture.  They should be in the pose and clothes they're in for an in character reason - for which reason we will want to look at the picture.
Lemma One: this is a game about adventurers.  Most women depicted will be either adventurers or antagonists.  Either way they should be portrayed as someone whose mind is on adventuring or on killing adventurers and who has dressed and prepared herself for that purpose.  (At least while they're adventuring.  In pictures of adventurers relaxing after their adventures they can be dressed to go out for the night leaving their armour at home.)
Principle Two: woman characters should not be there solely to be fought over or rescued.  Some woman characters who are being rescued are fine so long as there's no implication that being in trouble or being rescued makes a woman sexy.
Lemma Two: There's no need to always present woman characters as capable and confident.  Adventurers should get into trouble as an equal opportunity.  However, trouble should never be presented as making a woman in trouble more sexy.
Principle Three: the woman characters should not be portrayed as more alarmed or frightened than the equivalent male characters in the picture.
Principle Four: It's fine to present woman characters as attractive.  Most people like being attractive to other people.  The point should be that it's clear that the woman is in charge of her sexuality and the way she presents herself, not the other way around.  Also, if she's busy adventuring in a dungeon then it should be clear that her sexuality isn't part of her current priorities.
Lemma Three: there isn't any objection to nudity as such.  Merely to nudity where it doesn't have a good in-story reason to be there.

Some examples:

Morgan Ironwolf, from the Moldvay edition.  Good.  Yes, she has improbably large breasts and slender arms and waist and improbably form-fitting chainmail armour.  (I think it must be elven chain - it would make sense that reduced encumbrance chain is form-fitting.)  But that does not matter.  The immediate impression you get is that she is alert and ready for trouble.  Note that, although her breasts are improbably large her breasts don't form part of the outline of the image.  It's quite clear that she's not a supermodel posing as a fighter - she's a fighter who just happens to have the body of a supermodel.

The woman on the cover of the 1e AD&D DMG in the clutches of the efreet: bad.  What's she doing there?  Why's the efreet carrying her about?  Why's she wearing almost nothing?  It looks like she's only there to be rescued by the men in the foreground.  On the plus side, it looks as if she's about to try to stick the efreet with that dagger, so she's not purely passive.

1e AD&D DMG, again: The female magic user in the adventuring party under the random dungeon tables.  Good.  Her dress has a slit skirt that shows off her legs, but it looks like that's practical.  The illustrations show her solidly contributing to the party's actions.

Amber, from the 3rd edition.  Good.  She's baring her midriff, yes, but again it looks as if she's doing that to be practical rather than to be sexy.

4e: wizard on the PHB cover.  Bad.  Those clothes are not practical in a dungeon, and can't be justified by appealing to freedom of movement.  The pose makes no sense except to enhance her sexuality.  And, while her male dragonborn companion appears to be challenging the monsters to bring it on she's looking anxious.  So no.

1e AD&D Monster Manual: largely good.  Yes, there's lots of bare breasts.  There's nothing wrong with bared breasts.  The monsters with bare breasts are a good deal less exposed than the 4e wizard in her bra.  Yes, there's the succubus.  Good.  She's a succubus - of course she's not wearing anything and looking sexually provocative.  If you fall for her it's your lookout.  In a different way, a bra would just look silly on the gynosphinx.   And she's not there looking sexualised - she's looking at you like a cat looks at a mouse.
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1 year ago  ::  May 05, 2012 - 7:57PM #8
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,625

May 5, 2012 -- 2:46PM, Dewi wrote:

Axiom: the same standards should apply to female characters as to male characters.

Principle One: the character shouldn't be in the pose or clothes they're in just so that we want to look at the picture.  They should be in the pose and clothes they're in for an in character reason - for which reason we will want to look at the picture.
Lemma One: this is a game about adventurers.  Most women depicted will be either adventurers or antagonists.  Either way they should be portrayed as someone whose mind is on adventuring or on killing adventurers and who has dressed and prepared herself for that purpose.  (At least while they're adventuring.  In pictures of adventurers relaxing after their adventures they can be dressed to go out for the night leaving their armour at home.)
Principle Two: woman characters should not be there solely to be fought over or rescued.  Some woman characters who are being rescued are fine so long as there's no implication that being in trouble or being rescued makes a woman sexy.
Lemma Two: There's no need to always present woman characters as capable and confident.  Adventurers should get into trouble as an equal opportunity.  However, trouble should never be presented as making a woman in trouble more sexy.
Principle Three: the woman characters should not be portrayed as more alarmed or frightened than the equivalent male characters in the picture.
Principle Four: It's fine to present woman characters as attractive.  Most people like being attractive to other people.  The point should be that it's clear that the woman is in charge of her sexuality and the way she presents herself, not the other way around.  Also, if she's busy adventuring in a dungeon then it should be clear that her sexuality isn't part of her current priorities.
Lemma Three: there isn't any objection to nudity as such.  Merely to nudity where it doesn't have a good in-story reason to be there.

Some examples:

Morgan Ironwolf, from the Moldvay edition.  Good.  Yes, she has improbably large breasts and slender arms and waist and improbably form-fitting chainmail armour.  (I think it must be elven chain - it would make sense that reduced encumbrance chain is form-fitting.)  But that does not matter.  The immediate impression you get is that she is alert and ready for trouble.  Note that, although her breasts are improbably large her breasts don't form part of the outline of the image.  It's quite clear that she's not a supermodel posing as a fighter - she's a fighter who just happens to have the body of a supermodel.

The woman on the cover of the 1e AD&D DMG in the clutches of the efreet: bad.  What's she doing there?  Why's the efreet carrying her about?  Why's she wearing almost nothing?  It looks like she's only there to be rescued by the men in the foreground.  On the plus side, it looks as if she's about to try to stick the efreet with that dagger, so she's not purely passive.

1e AD&D DMG, again: The female magic user in the adventuring party under the random dungeon tables.  Good.  Her dress has a slit skirt that shows off her legs, but it looks like that's practical.  The illustrations show her solidly contributing to the party's actions.

Amber, from the 3rd edition.  Good.  She's baring her midriff, yes, but again it looks as if she's doing that to be practical rather than to be sexy.

4e: wizard on the PHB cover.  Bad.  Those clothes are not practical in a dungeon, and can't be justified by appealing to freedom of movement.  The pose makes no sense except to enhance her sexuality.  And, while her male dragonborn companion appears to be challenging the monsters to bring it on she's looking anxious.  So no.

1e AD&D Monster Manual: largely good.  Yes, there's lots of bare breasts.  There's nothing wrong with bared breasts.  The monsters with bare breasts are a good deal less exposed than the 4e wizard in her bra.  Yes, there's the succubus.  Good.  She's a succubus - of course she's not wearing anything and looking sexually provocative.  If you fall for her it's your lookout.  In a different way, a bra would just look silly on the gynosphinx.   And she's not there looking sexualised - she's looking at you like a cat looks at a mouse.




I don't have access to any books before 3E, can you post some of those pictures your talking about (or link to them if you can't post them). That way the developers don't have to dig up a book and thumb through it just to see what you are talking about (I hear they are really busy)...

Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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1 year ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 9:35PM #9
CCS
Date Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 3,535

May 5, 2012 -- 2:46PM, Dewi wrote:

Principle Two: woman characters should not be there solely to be fought over or rescued.  Some woman characters who are being rescued are fine so long as there's no implication that being in trouble or being rescued makes a woman sexy.




You've gotten it all wrong.  Those women are being rescued because they're sexy.

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1 year ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 10:03PM #10
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,526
When was the last time we've seen a reasonable middle-aged "grandmotherly" art in D&D?  It's always seemed like women in the D&D-verse instantly age from seventeen to a hundred-and-seventeen.

Something like this:

(this sort of art is pretty damn rare in MTG also)
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