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May 3, 2012 -- 3:07PM, Elaeron wrote:

I got into D&D a couple years ago.  I liked the idea of 4rth edition because I thought it would be simple enough to share with friends, learnable in one session.  But the encounter length was ridiculous.  It needed to be shorter than 3.5 not longer.  I was told of a 2nd ed game defeating 30 frost giants in thirty minutes.  I enjoyed HeroQuest as a kid.  Because of the infinitely larger amount of monsters, I don't think you could the time down to HeroQuest which would be ideal.  I asked some guys about playing D&D and the response was, that takes hours,  I can play a video game in 20 minutes.  Playing with my uncle in 3.5 and pathfinder, it was a struggle to complete a minor part of a story arc and 2 maybe 3 encounters if lucky in 5 hours of play.

I agree, the encounter length of 4e needs to be drastically changed (shortened) for DnD Next.

As one of the design goals is to allow a complete "adventure" to be resolved in 1 hour I have high hopes that it will be.

May 3, 2012 -- 3:07PM, Elaeron wrote:

I got into D&D a couple years ago.  I liked the idea of 4rth edition because I thought it would be simple enough to share with friends, learnable in one session.  But the encounter length was ridiculous.  It needed to be shorter than 3.5 not longer.  I was told of a 2nd ed game defeating 30 frost giants in thirty minutes.  I enjoyed HeroQuest as a kid.  Because of the infinitely larger amount of monsters, I don't think you could the time down to HeroQuest which would be ideal.  I asked some guys about playing D&D and the response was, that takes hours,  I can play a video game in 20 minutes.  Playing with my uncle in 3.5 and pathfinder, it was a struggle to complete a minor part of a story arc and 2 maybe 3 encounters if lucky in 5 hours of play.


I must admit I diverge from other gamers in that I prefer the role playing more.  Fourth edition was a major disappointment in this for me.  I liked the background suggestions in the character builder and the 4th ed dungeon masters guide 2 was the best roleplaying book I have read yet.  Really superb.  If I want bonuses, powers, and habitual combat I go to video games.  When I come to D&D, interesting stories, wacky stuff happening unexpectedly, and creative combat is what I'm looking for.  I liked the idea of essentials.  What I got from long time gone players and other potential people to play with is that the game looks too complicated.  But you can't just broad strip it down.  Powers that do the same thing but only differ in a minor way are cluttering, and I'd never play or want to play 3 handbooks of player classes and races.  The pantheons are cool but there are so many god's and demi gods that they only mean some sort of feat or bonus and have no meaning to the characters whereas in Lord of the Rings there is a definite story set up between ultimate good and evil.  I like the cool powers, like disguising yourself as a tree and not being limited by casting time or materials.  Not just combat powers.  And other than the wizard, it takes a lot of role out of the role playing to give everyone a power that is like a spell.  But I think everyone has figured that out.


Finally as a game that has a heavy combat focus and practical need of game markers, I must applaud Wizards attempt to foster affordable gaming materials.  I'm not going to buy an army of miniatures at 5 to 10   dollars a figure.  Unpainted plastics at less than a dollar a piece is doable.  I like the idea of tokens, because you can have all the monsters, but it isn't as fun as 3d.  Also, some quality 3d items that characters interact with would be really neat.  Pre-made maps and tiles are really cool, but really expensive.  It seems like it would be easier to just print out your own.  Of course I digress yet again, but there definitely seems to be a response in the last year or so by Wizard that is positive.  Customers are gonna want the whole set.  And they're gonna need affordable gaming materials in at least a basic set.  Like in Hero Scape where you have a basic starting box and then buy the add-ons.  There seems to be some experimentation and I think that's good.  I really hate cutting out dungeon tiles and 3d buildings.  Anyway, bunch of thoughts.

4E no more hinders role-play than any other edition of D&D. You may have had left-brain right-brain issues and gave up too early.

One side of your brain controls logical mathematical thought and the other side controls insight and creativity. When you go to learn mathematical stuff (as in the combat aspect of 4E) your logic brain becomes temporarily dominant until you have the rules learned, then after that the two halves of your brain even out and you're more easily able to role-play.

Many people had this problem, or get confused between the definition of role-play and open-ended storytelling. If you tried 4E for less than 3 months you probably just didn't give it enough of a chance for your brain to get comfortable with it, or didn't put a little effort into role-playing.

When you say doing the same thing over and over again got repetitive, then your making an unfair statement, because all the editions before 4E you had even less to do and less choices. You were forced to work outside the rules and make things up. This meant you were house ruling, not role-playing, and different DMs would allow different things, and would handle different situations differently. This made a lot of players mad when they switched from one DM to another.

In 4E you can actually try anything you want in combat or in the game. Its called the page 42 rule. In the DMG on page 42 you find a system that explains how to allow a player to try anything they can think of by tying the success to relevant skills. It even gives you likely damage tables for common things.

The difference between role-playing is deciding from the point of view of your character what they do. This does not mean you resolve conflicts or overcome obstacles by narrating them. That is called house ruling and is a break from the rules of the game.

That said, I agree they need make combat take less time...

May 3, 2012 -- 5:37PM, Shasarak wrote:

May 3, 2012 -- 4:59PM, lokiare wrote:

4E no more hinders role-play than any other edition of D&D.

Actually it does if it reduces the amount of non-combat time.

If your previous games had 3 hours out of combat and 1 hour of combat and your 4e game has 2 hours of combat and 2 hours out of combat then that is directly hindering your out of combat experience.

Whether you could do the exact same things out of combat as previously is irrelevant if you have less time to do it.

That said, I agree they need make combat take less time...

Yup.

The problem with your thought process is you can roleplay in combat. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but combat roleplay is some of the most rewarding.
Example:

Dark Knight "I will destroy you and then my armies will roll across the land! Bwahahahaha!"

Player"Nooooo, we'll stop you before that! I use my power that lets me charge through enemy occupied squares to get right up next to the Dark Knight. I use my attack power to hit the knight. 'I quickly slash across his chest with my blade hoping to pierce his armor. Knowing if I don't, that he will tear me apart." player rolls dice and misses.

DM "You slice your sword across his chest hoping to pierce his thick black armor. A slow red glow spreads across where you sliced and the armor mends itself. The Dark Knight lets out a maniacal laugh" DM laughs. DM rolls some dice and gets a hit, then rolls an athletics skill check "The Dark Knight suddenly lashes out his gauntleted hand and grabs your arm, then jerks you over the edge of the cliff that he is standing next to. 'Your life is about to end. You cannot stop me. My armies will plunder the countryside unopposed.' Beneath his dragon shaped helmet his eyes glow red with rage and madness."

Player "Merkel " (his character) " grits his teeth. He realizes his life is forfeit, but he does not care. He will stop this insane madman. He uses his power that grants him a +4 to grapple." rolls some dice and is successful "I use my grapple feat to drag the knight over the edge with me. Merkel yells fiercely"You will not destroy my land!"

DM rolls check to see if the Knight goes over and fails to resist. "As you both fall to your deaths the Dark Knight screams "Nooooooooooooo....."

Now tell me again you can't role-play in 4E...

May 3, 2012 -- 7:32PM, lokiare wrote:

Now tell me again you can't role-play in 4E...

Well I guess if I said that you cant role play in 4e....