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1 year ago ::
May 04, 2012 - 4:46PM
#41
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Date Joined:
May 16, 2004
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Can you point me to some source so that I can read the statements (in detail) myself? That would be great. Because I would have to change the way I have to look at the ICv2 reports and what they represent.
They represent comparative standing in the industry, which is all they purport to represent. icv2 doesn't report its numbers just as Wiards and Paizo don't share sales data with one another.
I know the reports are supposed to only represent a comparative standing in the industry. After all, it is ranking without specific numbers. But that assumes the numbers ICv2 has generated have merit. You have said that employees of WotC and Paizo have said that the ICv2 figures are a rough representation of brand success. That is at least some merit for me. However, I did not know about these statements before. And so all I was asking for if you could give a link or something so I could read the statements of the employees myself. So I am not asking what the report stands for. I am asking if I can read the statements to inform myself about this.
About sales information available for WotC: Would you agree that WotC did not base a change of editions on "rough interpretation", but rather compare accurate sales data and sales expectations in a specific business plan (something like: we planned to sell this much, but our own - superior to ICv2 - sales data says we only sold that much and that is not enough)?
No, I cannot agree because I don't think any single factor drives Wizards' actions. I think they all play a factor. Would you agree that, barring some form of corporate espionage, Wizards does not have access to Paizo's sales data and thus has no way to gauge how its sales compare to Paizo's sales? (And vice versa?)
Do you think Wizards would find that to be useful information in gauging its success in the market?
At least, that is how I think a business decision works. Is this what happenend?
We don't know what happened, because we're not corporate insiders. But the timing certainly raises questions. And the idea that Wizards would not care how its sales measure up to its competitors seems absurd.
First of all, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Of course the decision to design a new edition is not solely based on one thing. As I mentioned in my post above, market research about what kind of game players want to play is of importance, too (among other things). So I think we basically are in agreement here. And I also agree that WotC will not have the actual sales data from Paizo (and the other way around).
But whether a business plan succeeds and how much stuff you sell plays a vital part in that decision. Because that defines the game's financial success. WotC must have planned how much money it costs to design and rollout 4E with all its components (mechanics, books, DDI etc). And they will have calculated how much stuff they have to sell in order to break even and/or to make a profit. And WotC knows both of these things very accurately. That's why I am saying I do not think that the reports played a big part in that decision. Unless of course they needed the reports to see that a lot of people like 3e and 4E is feeling a lot of heat. But I guess one look into the usual forums would have told them, no reports necessary. And their actual sale number would have been a clear indicator as well. So I do not think Paizo's actual sales numbers are necessary to make that business decision. So, no, there is no need for espionage.
So I think we have the same thoughts on this subject. But you know about these statements and I do not, but I would like to read them, too.
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1 year ago ::
May 04, 2012 - 5:02PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2012
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@Snot-Elemental and others
Why in the world would thousands, maybe ten thousands, of shop owners be interviewed if the data gathered was crap? Why would they even continue to do it if no one respected it? This kind of research is not cheap. Is it perfect? Of course not. I suspected all along that it was decent data but not perfect. But it seems that some people think that sales affects the quality of their game for them. The reality is that it does not. If I loved X edition then I'd love it and I wouldn't care about sales other than the fact that sales could effect support for my game.
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1 year ago ::
May 04, 2012 - 6:07PM
#43
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Probably more like a few hundred.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Default module =/= Core mechanic.
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1 year ago ::
May 04, 2012 - 6:44PM
#44
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Sales don't reflect the the quality of a game. They reflects the appeal of the game (along with some other factors such as exposure). Appeal is arguably more important than quality. From a busines point of view it is definately more important.
From what has been said it sounds like the R&D team decided that they should change directions with a new edition long before working on a new edition was greenlit (apparently the realisation came from the way that someone was running a campaign in the summer(IIRC) of 2010 and I don't think work officially began on DDN until early 2011)... which was itself before PF's market share was reported to have passed D&D's (which would have been, I believe, more than half way through 2011). I suspect that WotC will have had their own market research to base any such decisions on.
Exact details may be slightly off as much of the information I am recalling from what was said in January.
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1 year ago ::
May 05, 2012 - 4:08AM
#45
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Date Joined:
May 16, 2004
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Sales don't reflect the the quality of a game. They reflects the appeal of the game (along with some other factors such as exposure). Appeal is arguably more important than quality. From a busines point of view it is definately more important.
I agree with completely.
A lot of people want to play the game that is #1. Or buy any other product that is #1. It is a psychological thing: if everybody buys it, it must be good.
I read the statement of the CEO of Paizo on ENWorld when PF came up #1 on the ICv2 reports for the first time (somebody posted the link to that statement, thank you for this). And she basically says: we would not change a single thing even if we rank 4 or 85. I seriously doubt this is true. If you want to make money with a business you have to think about what the competition does better if they sell more product and are more lucrative. CEOs and not only in it for the fun. They are also in it for the money. So, of course Paizo would change their strategy if their product would not sell and be ranked 85 on the list. Unless of course, the list does not mean anything. I admit it sounds good for a CEO to say: dear fans, we would not change a single thing. This is good marketing right there. They really do that well.
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1 year ago ::
May 05, 2012 - 7:53AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2007
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Unless you're a publicly listed company you do have the option of pursuing less profitable avenues if you want to. For example, a cellist's records might sell better if he switched to a guitar instead -- his guitar competitors might be selling three times his numbers -- but what if he really wants to play the cello? As long as you're not beholden to the public, you can choose to do things you *want* to do, even if they're not the most profitable roads.
I don't think it's true that all creative types automatically want the highest sales possible and are willing to conform to the best selling paradigm in order to sell better. Some people genuinely do have a vision and are willing to pursue it even if it means lower sales.
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1 year ago ::
May 05, 2012 - 8:31AM
#47
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Unless you're a publicly listed company you do have the option of pursuing less profitable avenues if you want to. For example, a cellist's records might sell better if he switched to a guitar instead -- his guitar competitors might be selling three times his numbers -- but what if he really wants to play the cello? As long as you're not beholden to the public, you can choose to do things you *want* to do, even if they're not the most profitable roads.
I don't think it's true that all creative types automatically want the highest sales possible and are willing to conform to the best selling paradigm in order to sell better. Some people genuinely do have a vision and are willing to pursue it even if it means lower sales.
So you're saying that Hasbro (NASDAQ: HAS), was forced to pursue the most profitable strategy, while Paizo (privately owned) could shoot for lower sales because they were pursuing their vision? But yet Paizo seems to be outselling Hasbro...
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1 year ago ::
May 05, 2012 - 8:46AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2007
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I'm very sure that Hasbro *thought* they were pursuing the most profitable strategy and thought that they would outsell Paizo who (I'm equally sure of this) *were* shooting for lower sales than D&D. Alas, Hasbro had crap all idea of what the market wanted and thus what they thought was the most profitable strategy was in fact shooting themselves in the foot, dropping them below Paizo's lower but realistic goal which understood the market.
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1 year ago ::
May 05, 2012 - 9:08AM
#49
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To be honest, sales figures DO only tell part of the story and are really only indicators to true objective statistics. And I'm not talking about "which system is better?" which is extremely subjective. I'm talking about which strategy is more profitable and which system is gaining players faster. We've already discussed that WotC lagging sales primarily has to due with a lighter release schedule but if we are going to talk about actual profitability, which determines the success of the strategy, then we have to know something about the profit margin - which we are not privy to. It is entirely possible that WotC is operating under huge profit margins (I'm being hypothetical here) and Paizo could be operating under razor thin profit margins (this seems more likely). At those coefficients Paizo would have to outsell WotC by many factors at the register to be turning equal profits. I am being hypothetical but this demonstrates how sales figures don't equal profitability. It also doesn't tell us about brand loyalty, that is players switching from 4e to PF or back, or whether players are simply playing both. The brand loyalty when measured in conjunction with profitability gives an indication of the long term survivability of the brand. But RPG competition is not a winner-take-all scenario, so is it quite possible that you have players who are playing both. Sales figures, when understood in relation to release schedule, do act as an indicator of increasing or decreasing brand loyalty (number of players switching brands) and in this case it seems to indicate the increase of PF loyalty. I'm saying this because it appears that the trend in Paizo-WotC sales (increase per time) favored Paizo over the period between the release of essentials and the core rulebook, two major rebranding events. [edit: I'm speculating on these trendlines from conversations I have had with owners of major FLGSs in the area, these are not based on actual sales figures] If both events were accompanied by massive swings in their direction and dips in the other direction, then this would seem to cancel each other out. That is, Paizo and WotC were just sharing the same customers who were buying both companies books. But it seems more likely that customers were ignoring the introduction of Essentials and heartily eating up the Core Rulebook. For me, this speculation is strengthened by the fact that we know about the survivability of the 4e brand. It's over. [edit: sorry if this is messy. I wrote this literally 2 minutes after waking up while still laying in bed]
I want to mention something else about how the survivability of a brand can be influenced by release schedule, but I plan to write a longer post on this later. Players, whether consciously or unconsciously, perceive that a brand is surviving. An RPG isn't like a short story, or like a tv mini-series. It's more like a soap opera or a comic book. As customers, we like to feel that we are getting involved with something living and breathing, that will continue to grow and develop. Nobody wants to spend a hundred bucks on an RPG knowing that no more supplemental materials will be released. The problem is, this is exactly what WotC does. When they introduce a new product, for example Gamma World or Dark Sun, they announce exactly how many products will be released before the product is axed. This really dampens the enthusiasm for these products. From the get-go, Gamma World was promised a core box set and 2 expansion sets. People begged and pleaded for more but WotC stuck to their guns. Dark Sun got 3 books (I believe), and encounters series, and 2 modules (if you count the gamesday adventure and I might be off here) and that is it. Then Dark Sun got axed. This "schizophrenic" marketing approach really makes no sense at all. The different games and worlds are not sufficiently developed to get players excited about them. I know that both worlds got a few articles in Dragon magazine, but if you know the quality of Dragon magazine, then you will know that these can hardly be counted.
It seems that what WotC did was to sit down beforehand and calculate the optimum, most profitable release schedule. They decided that they would be able to sell this many units to the current market without over-saturating, and then they would move on. This seems very cut and dry but it totally neglects the customer experience. Additionally, ignoring repeated and frequent customer requests to continue a product line, or to bring back into print books which went out of print far too quickly (Dark Sun books) leads only to an image of intransigence. To me, this is exactly where WotC has failed, and why WotC will fail. They do not listen to their customers. (Don't get me started on how they run DDi. They need to fire every single person on that staff from the top down and do a page-one-rewrite). Hopefully DDN will be a step in the right direction, but knowing the way WotC operates, it is hard to imagine that they will continue to listen.
Before I sign off, I want to emphasize that I am not laying the blame on designers such as Monte Cook, Rob Schwalb, Bruce Cordell or other designers. If anything, the corporate suits who are coming up with these failing strategies are the same ones who are hobbling their designers. I'm really wondering what drove Monte Cook away. Did somebody from WotC sit him down and insist that they integrate a CCG into DDN? Did they not-so-subtlety suggest on many occasions that a collectable aspect of the game be a very nice feature? Monte Cook and WotC/Hasbro didn't see eye to eye on something, and it wasn't the stats of the Mind Flayer. To me, this does not bode well for DDN, WotC and the future of the D&D brand.
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1 year ago ::
May 05, 2012 - 9:22AM
#50
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Date Joined:
May 16, 2004
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Unless you're a publicly listed company you do have the option of pursuing less profitable avenues if you want to. For example, a cellist's records might sell better if he switched to a guitar instead -- his guitar competitors might be selling three times his numbers -- but what if he really wants to play the cello? As long as you're not beholden to the public, you can choose to do things you *want* to do, even if they're not the most profitable roads.
I don't think it's true that all creative types automatically want the highest sales possible and are willing to conform to the best selling paradigm in order to sell better. Some people genuinely do have a vision and are willing to pursue it even if it means lower sales.
But see: Through the OGL, they can play the guitar. They have a full rule set at their disposal that they did not have to pay for. They can do whatever they want with that. Which they did. And that includes cello and guitar and a goblin drum or two. Also: do you really think that Lisa Stevens is working to fulfill her dream only? That seems absurd to me. Paizo published the DnD magazines for years in the 3.5 era. I 2005 on average they distributed 32,346 Dungeon magazines and in Oktober 2006 they distributed 31,465 Dragon magazines. Plus, they sold other stuff for which they advertized in the magazines as well. I am sure that Mrs. Stevens lives in a nice house that needs be paid for, drives a car, eats, goes on vacation etc. She is not Diogenes of Sinope, living in a barrel. Neither is Erik Mona. Also, they seem to have a firm grasp of what the business side of the hobby is. And I guarantee you they will change their business strategy and even their product line if, for example, the RPG side of their business started to loose steam and the boardgame side of the market grows. Especially because we can safely assume the profit margin is pretty low. The fact that you believe they do not care about being #85 after being #1 or #2 shows me how great their marketing works.
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