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Switch to Forum Live View Can race be as important a decision as class?
1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:22AM #11
lofgren
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2008
Posts: 4,754
I much prefer to minimize the impact of race. I don't like all of the feats in 4e that are like, "Must be a sun elf revenant ranger with the beast mastery feature multiclassed as an assassin who wields a flail and always wears pink except on Tuesdays when you wear green." I thought that race and alignment restrictions on PrCs in 3e were just an annoyance, especially when they led to multiple PrCs with minimal variation but a different race/alignment restriction. Creating too many vectors for mechanical difference is one of the primary causes of useless bloat.

Racial choices are primarily driven by the flavor that the player wants. Even in 4e I think there is too much mechanical encouragement to play particular race/class combos, although whether that is more due to the way that races were implemented or classes is up for debate. I don't mind if elf wizards have some minimal affinity over dwarf wizards, but in mechanical function I would much rather that be left to the individual player to express by choosing to emphasize those differences through feat and spell selection rather than be something that they feel pressured to do because the available options are significantly different.

How great or how little two characters differ because of their race should be in the hands of the player and the group, and to enable that the system should not have dozens of niche options for individual races.
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:23AM #12
Asperdn
Date Joined: Jan 13, 2012
Posts: 197

I think that race can and should be at least as important as class, I really like the idea of a set of racial feats the have some synergy with the combat mechanics and evolve over the life of the character. So something like a bonus to your bow ablates because you are an Elf, or a bonus with hammers for a dwarf etcetera. (And no I am not suggesting that racial be melee only just that melee bonuses are not specifically excluded).  I would love to see additional racial bonuses added as you level so some sort of additional racial bonus at level 5, 10, 15 etcetera.

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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 10:25AM #13
edwin_su
Date Joined: Aug 25, 2007
Posts: 2,882
well feats will be bundeled in themes.
I think there was a book in 3.X that had racial paragorn classes.
 
woulden't be suprised if each race also has a racial theme you could chose. 
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 10:41AM #14
lofgren
Date Joined: Dec 27, 2008
Posts: 4,754

May 3, 2012 -- 9:43AM, Lord_Daxl wrote:

How great or how little two characters differ because of their race should be in the hands of the player and the group, and to enable that the system should not have dozens of niche options for individual races.




What's the point of having a race like the halfling, which is "small, nimble and cunning", if small, nimble and cunning is completely irrelevant?  Why have a big hulking brute race like the half-orc, if being a big hulking brute doesn't mean anything?  Furthermore, if you want to play a big hulking brute style fighter, why in the world are you picking a halfing?




I'm probably going to regret responding to somebody who takes a single sentence of my post and removes it from all context in order to blatantly twist its meaning in a manner I can't help but suspect is intentional, but here goes…

What's the point of having a race like the halfling, which is "small, nimble and cunning", if small, nimble and cunning is completely irrelevant?




I'm sure there must be a term for this kind of dishonest phrasing, but I'm not sure what it is. So starting with:

Q: "What is the point of a halfling?"
A: "So that players who want to play halfling characters can do so."

Q: "What is the point of a halfling if he is not small, nimble, and cunning?"
A: "Those are all relative terms that describe halfling PCs to widely varying degrees. Halflings have a particular flavor which they retain even if the player wants to play a halfling who is large for his race, strong and tough, and dense. In fact in 4e there are options that deliberately enable this character, and the halfing receives ability score bonuses more conducive to toughness than to cunning (+2 CON instead of +2 INT). The very fact that you imagine halflings are cunning despite no mechanical encouragement for such a character is evidence for why that support is unnecessary. Further when we talk about racial options we are talking about the available choices used to build individuals. A given party can easily have a more cunning or nimble half-orc than the party's halfling sorcerer. That does not mean that half-orcs are, as a rule, more cunning and nimble than halflings in that setting."

Q: "If the extent to which characters vary due to their race is primarily a flavorful description, doesn't that mean that small, cunning, and nimble are meaningless?"
A: "No. Those statisitcs should still be represented mechanically, just as they are in every edition. But it should be possible to create a human who is equally cunning or nimble as a halfling with minimal mechanical sacrifice (just as it is in 4e). It should be possible to create a halfling who is not nimble or cunning with minimal mechanical sacrifice (just as it is in 4e). There is absolutely nothing in my post to indicate that I want to eliminate the mechanical expression of nimbleness, cleverness, or smallness. If that was what I intended, I would have said so."

Next sentence:

 Why have a big hulking brute race like the half-orc, if being a big hulking brute doesn't mean anything?




Q: "Why have a race like the half-orc?"
A: "So that players who wish to play half-orcs have options to do so."

Q: "Why describe half orcs as big, hulking brutes?"
A: "Because it provides flavor and distinction to the race through description. There is no need to require orc PCs to be big hulking brutes in order to convey that desciption. Describing half-orcs as big hulking brutes will be sufficient to draw the attention of players who are interested in playing such a character without requiring significant mechanical penalties or rewards for doing so. In addition players who want to play exceptional half-orcs will be more enabled to do so." 

Q: "If half-orc PCs are not mechanically rewarded for playing big hulking brutes, or half-orc PCs who play against type penalized, doesn't that mean that being a big hulking brute is meaningless mechanically?" 
A: "No. You can build your +4 STR, -1 CHA fighter just the same as always, and see mechanical fallout from those choices. Hulking and brutish should be mechanically represented just like always." 

Next sentence:

Furthermore, if you want to play a big hulking brute style fighter, why in the world are you picking a halfing?




Q: "Shouldn't people who want to play against racial type be banned or at least significantly discouraged from doing so because it doesn't align with my personal preferences for how those races are depicted?"
A: "No. Your personal preferences are your personal preferences. If you don't want to play a big hulking halfling, don't build one. I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for people on this board but it seems to come up again and again. If some particular race/class combo doesn't make sense to you, don't play that character. Your problem is now solved and you can move onto something else. You're welcome."

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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 10:54AM #15
Qmark
  • vitriol and virtue
Date Joined: May 18, 2002
Posts: 16,540
Q.E.D.
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:13AM #16
Zappy
Date Joined: Nov 15, 2007
Posts: 596
I agree with you.

I remember that preview bit as well. I actually think that 4E didn't hit the mark as much as you think it did. Yes a Dwarven fighter with and axe is different for a human fighter with a long sword. However I do not think that a Dwarven fighter with an axe is that different from a human fighter with an axe. I think they threw it off with the weapon switch. I would like for race to mean more than what feats you can pick.
Because you like something, it does not mean it is good.
Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus.

Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:21AM #17
Mirtek
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Aug 4, 2001
Posts: 3,452

I think that race could be as important as class, however I do not think it should.


That would be hard to do in a class-neutral way, and if not done in a class-neutral way it would


a) shoehorn the race into a certain class
b) make other races with the same class feel inferior


Remember all the complains about minotour racial sucking if you aren't a melee class?


Now expand that to people complaining about every class and add players about every class complaining about a certain race.


Just imagine that dwarf fighters are the ultimate axe fighters. That just causes a player who wants to play his human nordman axe fighter feel inferior whenever he thinks how much better the move he just performed would have been if his fighter were a dwarf

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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:40AM #18
crzyhawk
Date Joined: Nov 6, 2010
Posts: 780

May 3, 2012 -- 11:21AM, Mirtek wrote:


I think that race could be as important as class, however I do not think it should.


That would be hard to do in a class-neutral way, and if not done in a class-neutral way it would


a) shoehorn the race into a certain class
b) make other races with the same class feel inferior


Remember all the complains about minotour racial sucking if you aren't a melee class?


Now expand that to people complaining about every class and add players about every class complaining about a certain race.


Just imagine that dwarf fighters are the ultimate axe fighters. That just causes a player who wants to play his human nordman axe fighter feel inferior whenever he thinks how much better the move he just performed would have been if his fighter were a dwarf




This.  I like the fact that races can be good at some things, but if you make suboptimal choices it doesn't make you brokenly useless.  A +1 here or there isn't really a game breaker.  A difference maker, sure but not the difference between being decent and being useless.  In 4e you have to TRY to make things useless.

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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 1:08PM #19
emwasick
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2007
Posts: 4,043

May 3, 2012 -- 10:41AM, lofgren wrote:

Q: "Shouldn't people who want to play against racial type be banned or at least significantly discouraged from doing so because it doesn't align with my personal preferences for how those races are depicted?"
A: "No. Your personal preferences are your personal preferences. If you don't want to play a big hulking halfling, don't build one. I don't understand why this is a difficult concept for people on this board but it seems to come up again and again. If some particular race/class combo doesn't make sense to you, don't play that character. Your problem is now solved and you can move onto something else. You're welcome."



It's amazing how often this point comes up.
"My LG paladin is not worthwhile if there is also a CE paladin in the book."
"My troublemaking hobbit thief isn't as fun if tough, serious hobbits can exist."
"My spell isn't fun to cast if your non-spell is fun."
"My party of Middle Earth archetypes is no longer fun if there are other choices in the book."
"My way of doing things is invalidated when it isn't enshrined."

There's basically one thread on these forums.

Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.

Quotation of the moment Show

Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?


Quotation of ALL moments Show

TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.

A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 3:02PM #20
emwasick
Date Joined: Oct 7, 2007
Posts: 4,043

May 3, 2012 -- 2:21PM, Lord_Daxl wrote:

There's a big difference between, "serious hobbit" and "hobbit that is as good at the big hulking brute part of being a barbarian as a half-orc".

I don't want you not to be able to play a hobbit as a barbarian.  I just have a hard time taking a setting seriously if your 3-foot hobbit barbarian is as brutely and strong as a half-orc.



Are you worried that the above will happen in DDN even though it's never happened before?

Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves.

Quotation of the moment Show

Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?


Quotation of ALL moments Show

TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.

A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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