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Switch to Forum Live View Balance and Roleplaying are not mutually exclusive
1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:16PM #41
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,103
When did undead rate back story? They're vile abominations that are an affront to free will and living beings. BURN THEM ALL!

IN all seriousness any long haul fight is gonna get people into a very strategy oriented mentality, it's the smart thing to do in character and as a Player. 
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:27PM #42
Shasarak
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2007
Posts: 4,307

May 3, 2012 -- 7:37PM, rampant wrote:

That is not at all what balance is about.

Balance is about making sure that characters don't spend whole encounters twiddling their thumbs or contributing nothing to the outcome.

If your party has no stealthy people then stealth tactics should fail against even moderately alert foes, unless someone is running a really good bit of misdirection and distraction. 

Balance just means that the least stealthy member of the party doesn't get left home. They can fumble through with the help of their party, and maybe even help with stuff, like keeping watch, or distractions.

 




Well if that is all you are worried about then just get rid of the assumption that just because your character does not have a trained skill in their highest stat does not equal being a useless boob that better not open his mouth or he may cause the party to "fail" the encounter.

So many times I have seen the party Fighter come up with a great idea in the midst of a social situation but been too afraid to say it himself because the Bard has a +1 million bonus to diplomacy.

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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:39PM #43
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,103
Right which is why either you need to use alternative skills for dimplomacy (at a mild penalty) on occasion, or allow the assist mechanics to not suck.

For example a fighter with weaponsmithing should be able to help the bard convince the local authorities that the caravan was attacked by Hobgoblins instead of the local Orcs based on the damage done to the carts or bodies. Maybe racking up an extra success or making further checks in the same vein easier, or something.
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1 year ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:53PM #44
chaosfang
Date Joined: May 1, 2009
Posts: 5,046
tl;dr

Here's my take on the whole thing: roleplaying, balance, etc. are by themselves isolated events; you could have roleplaying without any game system at all, you could have a balanced/imbalanced game system (wargames), etc.  However, we are discussing a game system that relies on the following elements:
1. Story
2. Individual characters who are part of the story, being played by humans
3. Preferably one human who is in charge of bringing the story to life

It's these three elements of the game that we have a whole lot of friction on everything.  Some players don't mind playing it simple or giving way to other players, others are just plum shy and don't want to be in the spotlight *at all*, some don't even care for the rules and just want to be immersed in the story, some just focus on the rules and -- at the extreme end -- eschew story, etc.

Here's my question though: what is the purpose of the genre in the first place?



Here's how I look at it: roleplaying games are a means to not just convey a story, but to create a story... the group's story.  To date, only tabletop roleplaying games and live action roleplaying have been able to fully allow such an ability, as even computer RPGs can at best create only the DM's story, which is basically either single railroad or multiple railroad, but still railroad.  Tabletop RPGs are the primary source of DM frustration and innovation, as all but the most iron-fisted of them would allow and encourage players to think out of the box and tackle the story in a way never before thought by the DM.

So how do you prevent the whole thing from breaking down into a mish-mash of chaos?  Through the use of rules.  Rules that are, for the DM, only guidelines, which means that no matter what system, the guy moderating the event will always be the guy with the last word.

Now, with the existence of rules, the DM now has some control over what players can and can't do in the game.  However, in spite of the rules, there's always a risk of one player -- be it the most creative, the most rules-lawyer-y, the most munchkin, etc. -- being able to overshadow the other participants (even in a rules-free roleplaying session).  This is where "balance" comes into play: the guy with the sword not capable of wielding magic the same way as a magician?  Limit the magician and boost the guy with the sword! The guy with the dagger not capable of fighting at the same skill as the guy with the sword?  Let him get to do stuff the guy with the sword can't hope to do!

Note that as a side effect of the introduction of rules, it becomes easier to discourage two things:
-> reckless behavior
-> creative action

And the sad thing is, these two things are often interchangeable.  As a result, any time someone wants to do stuff, it's less of the vague "is it logical?" and more of the specific "is it in the rules?"

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Not to intentionally diss the edition -- as just about every edition past D&D Basic and AD&D would be at fault here -- but 3.X had it worst: while the system was still more of a guide than a harness, the skill system (first introduced in 2E Oriental Adventures as non-weapon proficiencies, if my lore is accurate) basically not only had way too may non-combat skills, but those skills had to share skill points with combat skills.  Not only that, but the entire system was effectively built on too much flexibility combined with too much micromanagement (IMHO).  The bad thing about it was that creativity without rules was MUCH harder to pull off in 3.X than any other edition... but the interesting thing is that the entire system allowed for a different sort of creativity: the creativity you could associate more with "how do you recreate things using the rules?" than with "how do you recreate things in spite of the rules?".

Star Wars: Saga Edition was an attempt to try new things, taking stuff from D&D 3.5E and then some.  Based on the lessons learned from that system, D&D 4E was born.  Unfortunately, the whole change in format and stuff PLUS the bad marketing done by WotC damaged beyond belief the system that could have been what we see now as D&D Next.

[ Personally I think D&D 4E is decades ahead of its time, but again that's just me. ]


Back to the topic of balance vs. roleplaying: it's not so much balance vs. roleplaying as rules vs. roleplaying.  People generally don't want to do things "wrong", even in an environment where there really isn't any wrong answer.  How often do you have players with low CHA doing the talking?  How often do you have 8 STR Wizards leading the charge with mundane daggers and no magical buffs?  A negligible statistic would do so, I believe.  And that's where the rules and roleplaying experience friction: even if it makes more sense that, let's say a Warrior Guild member speak with members of the Warrior Guild, more often than not it's the guy with either high CHA or "Charm Person" who would do the speaking, simply because the rules (unintentionally) say that he's the better speaker, at least until the DM explicitly states that the Warrior Guild member has situational bonuses that make the Warrior Guild member at least as competent as the Face.  Even if, story-wise, it makes great appeal for a wizard lost in his rage against the jester that killed his mentor to pick up a dagger and just punch him with it, it makes better sense rules-wise to use spells, because he's better at spells than at fighting with hand-to-hand attacks.

Vancian spells are the worst part of rules-vs.-roleplaying.  Traditionally, it took a lot more effort by both the DM and the system to keep the whole thing in check, for two reasons:
1. Magic is, traditionally, a DM resource (how many times has magic not been used as a sort of deus ex machina in novels?)
2. Magic, due to its nature, openly defies DM ruling-based-on-logic (e.g. laws of physics being regularly broken by practitioners of Fly, Teleport, and the like)


In short: "balance" is an adjustment of the rules to allow everyone to contribute in a scenario in their own special way, instead of having everything solved by a couple of spells.  Roleplaying has nothing to do with balance, although the leeway provided by the rules for roleplaying does.
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Oct 3, 2009 -- 12:36AM, MrCelsius wrote:


If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.



I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire
Stay Thirsty, My Friends


This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.

What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development)

Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with

The Best Answer to "Why 4E?"

Fun vs. Engaging
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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 5:11AM #45
AbdulAlhazred
Date Joined: Jan 9, 2009
Posts: 10,302

May 3, 2012 -- 8:39PM, rampant wrote:

Right which is why either you need to use alternative skills for dimplomacy (at a mild penalty) on occasion, or allow the assist mechanics to not suck.

For example a fighter with weaponsmithing should be able to help the bard convince the local authorities that the caravan was attacked by Hobgoblins instead of the local Orcs based on the damage done to the carts or bodies. Maybe racking up an extra success or making further checks in the same vein easier, or something.


This is why skill challenges exist. Many people don't really seem to understand that they are actually a fairly key part of the equation that makes it possible for all PCs to have a lot of agency in any situation.

I'd also point out that the Aid Another rule doesn't suck. It works fine. The original AA rule, meh it wasn't as good in some situations. Pretty much any 4e paragon PC should have no trouble aiding another PC in virtually any situation where the DM will allow it.

That is not dead which may eternal lie
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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 5:19AM #46
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 15,442
@chaosfang: That makes more sense, but anyone that has a really low cha, int, and wis, and comes up with a super clever idea to scam the King or whatever is metagaming. Because roleplaying entails playing the role of the character.

Really its houseruling. There's nothing wrong with it, but its a break from the rules...
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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 5:25AM #47
AbdulAlhazred
Date Joined: Jan 9, 2009
Posts: 10,302

May 3, 2012 -- 8:53PM, chaosfang wrote:

Back to the topic of balance vs. roleplaying: it's not so much balance vs. roleplaying as rules vs. roleplaying.  People generally don't want to do things "wrong", even in an environment where there really isn't any wrong answer.  How often do you have players with low CHA doing the talking?  How often do you have 8 STR Wizards leading the charge with mundane daggers and no magical buffs?  A negligible statistic would do so, I believe.  And that's where the rules and roleplaying experience friction: even if it makes more sense that, let's say a Warrior Guild member speak with members of the Warrior Guild, more often than not it's the guy with either high CHA or "Charm Person" who would do the speaking, simply because the rules (unintentionally) say that he's the better speaker, at least until the DM explicitly states that the Warrior Guild member has situational bonuses that make the Warrior Guild member at least as competent as the Face.  Even if, story-wise, it makes great appeal for a wizard lost in his rage against the jester that killed his mentor to pick up a dagger and just punch him with it, it makes better sense rules-wise to use spells, because he's better at spells than at fighting with hand-to-hand attacks.




Well, are you suggesting that the wizard should get a big bonus because it makes the story cooler? That would certainly be in keeping with say Feng Shui. It isn't likely to be regarded to highly in D&D. If the wizard goes wacko and punches someone with a dagger, well then it would be rather ineffective as you'd expect. Its up to the DM to make this interesting. Maybe the jester just laughs at him and runs off. Maybe the wizard runs after him and is found cut in 4 pieces in the irrigation canal in the morning.

If the fighter is in the warrior guild and has their trust then that is in and of itself an RP situation. Why does he need to make CHA based rolls? Characters have backgrounds and contacts and whatnot. They should be factored into a situation. The whole SC is easier (IE complexity is lowered or there are auto-successes or lower DCs). Or maybe what the PCs want from the guild is so extraordinary that the option wouldn't even exist if the fighter couldn't get them in the front door to make their pitch. There are just infinite ways to handle things. The fighter could make some WIS checks to see where he can interject and remind the guild masters of his reliability (maybe they give pluses to the bard's checks to tell the story effectively) or maybe the fighter tells the story/makes the pitch and the bard uses CHA checks to AA.

Again, this reinforces my point that the SC system is not just some 'tack on' to the system. It is a vital part of a social/exploration skill system that works well. Remember, systems previous to 4e had nothing on 4e in this regard. There's nothing really about this that has to do with balance in and of itself. A good SC system simply makes it easier to allow everyone some agency in more situations. Of course some people will like to 'wing it' instead of using a formal SC system, but they should be keeping the same things in mind. The details of the mechanics aren't really that central, just the effect.

That is not dead which may eternal lie
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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 1:27PM #48
Shasarak
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2007
Posts: 4,307

May 4, 2012 -- 5:25AM, AbdulAlhazred wrote:

Again, this reinforces my point that the SC system is not just some 'tack on' to the system. It is a vital part of a social/exploration skill system that works well. Remember, systems previous to 4e had nothing on 4e in this regard. There's nothing really about this that has to do with balance in and of itself. A good SC system simply makes it easier to allow everyone some agency in more situations. Of course some people will like to 'wing it' instead of using a formal SC system, but they should be keeping the same things in mind. The details of the mechanics aren't really that central, just the effect.




There is no essential difference between a 4e skill challenge and a previous edition winging it using ability or skill checks except 4e has an artificial end point.

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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion

"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk


All characters have a story. Spoiler: Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 2:46PM #49
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 18,547

May 4, 2012 -- 1:27PM, Shasarak wrote:

May 4, 2012 -- 5:25AM, AbdulAlhazred wrote:

Again, this reinforces my point that the SC system is not just some 'tack on' to the system. It is a vital part of a social/exploration skill system that works well. Remember, systems previous to 4e had nothing on 4e in this regard. There's nothing really about this that has to do with balance in and of itself. A good SC system simply makes it easier to allow everyone some agency in more situations. Of course some people will like to 'wing it' instead of using a formal SC system, but they should be keeping the same things in mind. The details of the mechanics aren't really that central, just the effect.




There is no essential difference between a 4e skill challenge and a previous edition winging it using ability or skill checks except 4e has an artificial end point.




Broad skill interpretations... DMs and players allowing themselves latitude with regards to figuring out not necessarily obvious ways to apply skills to accomplish a more complex ummm distant goal  .. the previous editions winging it, involves thinking about it differently. Atleast that is the way I see a difference (and a skill challenge is geared up with experience points).

Oh and if you must compare..
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingChara...



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1 year ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 3:23PM #50
Shasarak
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2007
Posts: 4,307

May 4, 2012 -- 2:46PM, Garthanos wrote:


Oh and if you must compare..
www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingChara...






So no different then the 3e rules then?

Pro DnD
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Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012

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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion

"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk


All characters have a story. Spoiler: Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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