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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:37PM
#81
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
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Could be, but it is has been my experience in a range of groups in two states. In fact in my experience it is rare to have an entire party in which no member has been oppressed, subjugated, expelled, enslaved, or disenfranchised due to their race or racial qualities, unless everybody is playing a race that has oppressed, subjugated, expelled, enslaved, or disnefranchised races.
My point, that you still seem to not be quite clear on, is that the party member that has been oppressed, subjugated, expelled, enslaved, or disenfranchised has not necessarily been due to what we call racism.
No, it's not your point, or if it is your point then you have a new point. The point you have been hammering since you started posting in this thread is that the DnD lore concerning most of what we call races is actually more similar in mechanical relationship to what we call species in the real world – despite the fact that neither real-world term is actually very accurate.
This new point of yours is conveniently irrelevent to every point that I have tried to make, so I will ignored it.
There's more to the story, potentially. Maybe not in your stories, but in my stories there could be. You seem to be painting with too broad a brush, and dismissing alternative scenarios.
Not really sure what you're getting at here. The state of the argument is that the OP has suggested that racial ability bonuses in DnD reinforce the real-world concept of racial essentialism. You countered that the lore of DnD races makes them more similar to a real-world species. I explained that this is irrelevant, and gave examples that clearly indicate that non-racial differences in fictional populations can project a racially charged message.
Yes, you can also tell other stories. Nobody has claimed otherwise. This is another pathetic strawman. Address the actual argument at hand, or move on. Stop making up simplistic caricatures of the OP's argument in order to frame it as absurd. It's not an unreasonable point, even if you disagree with it for valid reasons (which you have yet to express).
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:39PM
#82
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
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But Wrecan, the presence of longswords is authoritative proof that the metaphor in question is the Crusades.
On a serious note, I think Gygax' original metaphor was the Bronze Age.
- Polytheistic cultures where gods are believed to take a direct hand in things
- Isolated areas of civilization with large swaths of nomadic raiding savages between them
- The ability of successful heroes to be gifted with tracts of land and instant followers
- Strong tribal (what D&D race really represents) affiliations.
I thought it was Eurasia after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. That way enough time has passed since the rise of civilization that the landscape is dotted with forgotten ruins and incomprehensible technology.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:41PM
#83
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2008
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Yup. You're a horrible person. It's much more appropriate to be killing and pillaging human settlements that are the same skincolor.
*hangs head*
Oh man. So, humanoid races are off limits, and you can't just turn people into demons or undead since that is still racist. A party can't kill animals since that is animal cruelty. Any creature that is young should also be off limits due that being perceived as child abuse. Killing something because one's god said so would also be off limits as would be killing any servant of a god/religion. If the critter happens to have an alternative lifestyle, it too must be made safe...
Is there anything we can fight? Oh, wait, the act of fighting implies violence and that is bad. I guess we should only role play being in taverns.. wait, taverns sell booze and that's bad... so our parties should go outside and frolic or maybe ply a trade like blacksmithing, but oops, that harms the environment... so what can we do in a fantasy world that won't insult some group or another?
Yep we D&D players are just awful. 
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:50PM
#84
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Wrecan, stop ruining my wonderful sarcasm with historical validity.
@lofgren,
You've claimed that it is irrelevant, but what you haven't done is clearly indicate that non-racial differences in fictional populations can project a racially charged message in every circumstance, which is what you both appear to be claiming by making statemnts like "racial ability bonuses in D&D reinforce the real-world concept of racial essentialism." It's not a "pathetic strawman" to say that you're only looking at a small portion of the potential meaning behind a racial ability score adjustment - that is what you're doing. In of my games, racial ability bonuses don't reinforce the real-world concept of racial essentialism, because my games don't have even the slightest hint of anything remotely like the real-world construction of race, let alone the real-world concept of racial essentialism that is about the false perceived positive and negative aspects of race. In some of my games, what you might call racial essentialism is about actual positive and negative aspects of race, which is in a completely different frame of thought because it examines what a world could look like if the sentient beings in it weren't all created equal. In other games, it never even comes up.
I'm not sure how much more clearly I can state this, to be honest.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:50PM
#85
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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That way enough time has passed since the rise of civilization that the landscape is dotted with forgotten ruins and incomprehensible technology.
Even the Bronze Age was littered with legends of past great (fictional) civiliztions.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:50PM
#86
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the entire game reinforces the real world perception that races have both positive and negative inherant qualities and that it puts us, as players, on a path to slaughtering those who are less civilized, different, or labelled "evil".
How does the mere existence of fantasy races do that? This is the assumption of your position that I don't see. It has been my experience that fictional constructs (like RPGs and sci fi series) with fictional inhuman races tend to propote tolerance, rather than intolerance. Have you any evidence that the existence of D&D races promotes racial intolerance?
Many of you are reacting pretty normally to even indirect accusations of racism.
I'm sorry, but did you just say you indirectly accused the rest of us of being racists?
I'm just asking that you consider my points.
Many of us are. And we'd like you to address our counterpoints in return, preferably without oblique accusations of racism.
wrecan, the mere existence of fantasy races allows us to tell stories about race without getting caught up in the realities of any actual, real-world race. It saves us from being directly racist, by allowing us to express our ideas about race itself. And I don't find this to be bad, in and of itself. However, by giving different races different inherent aptitudes we do two things- we imply that race in real life is tied to inherent aptitudes, and we ask players to make decisions based on those aptitudes in which those players then (frequently) decide that it's not worth the trouble of playing wizard who isn't from a highly intelligent race, or a fighter from a race that isn't strong and tough. We have built a race equals profession scenario here and that smacks me in the face, to be honest.
Now the issue of players vs. evil/barbaric races is a much more nuanced thing. It's not a system problem, it's part of our culture as gamers and I'm not sure there's a clear solution.
As to indirectly calling people in this thread racist, I'm not. I'm saying that I realize that the things I'm saying are implying that we, as a gaming culture, have a game as our flagship that indirectly inforces the validity of racist stereotypes, and that people are liable to take that as an attack on them. I am calling us on our problems and some will take it personally. I'm sorry for that.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:52PM
#87
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Wrecan, stop ruining my wonderful sarcasm with historical validity.
Stp ruiniing my historical validity with your wonderful sarcasm! 
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:53PM
#88
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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However, by giving different races different inherent aptitudes we do two things- we imply that race in real life is tied to inherent aptitudes.
I don't imply that. Don't speak for me when you have no idea what you're talking about, thanks. See my previous post for an explanation of the distinction.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:55PM
#89
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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wrecan, the mere existence of fantasy races allows us to tell stories about race without getting caught up in the realities of any actual, real-world race.
Yes, I understand that it can be used that way. I'm asking you what basis you have to believe it is in fact used that way.
I am calling us on our problems and some will take it personally.
You haven't yet established that is an actual, rather than theoretical, problem. Is there any evidence that fans of D&D, or other media with alien races, like Star Trek, Star Wars, etc., are more prone to racism than the population at large? If not, then I have to question whether the presence of fantasy races operates to inflame racist attitudes, when I think it actually allows us to explore them in a less judgmental setting, thus producing a community that is more tolerant than the population at large.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 2:01PM
#90
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Date Joined:
Jan 18, 2010
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Over the past couple of weeks, my group has fought and killed a giant cockroach, a fire breathing two headed snake, a pack of dire wolves and a cave bear.
If I read the OP right, is me and my group guilty of promoting real world animal cruelty?
Yes.
You should be ashamed!
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."- John Stuart Mill
Old Man of the House of Trolls
Resident Hater
God of Anger and Hatred.
Mini Hate Machine
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