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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 2:40PM
#41
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I'm hoping that while themes are a container for feats that they also have "something else" in them such as something you only get from the theme. Some themes may be very generic and don't have this, but some will.
Theme-creep?
Maybe the Feat list won't include all the Feats listed in various Themes.
Exactly. Maybe there's a theme of, say, Ritualist. Maybe it give you the feats of Ritual Caster and Thematic Spellcasting, but also allows you to use the Read Magic cantrip, which obviates the need to make an Arcane check to understand a new ritual. And you get the ritual proficient, which gives youa +1 on any ritual castign checks. Maybe Read Magic is way more powerful than a standard feat, but Ritual Proficient is way less powerful. The theme isn't unbalanced as a package, but they don't put Read Magic or Ritual Proficient on the modular feat list because it is unbalanced. Instead, to get that, you need the Ritualist Theme.
Yeah, that's one possible design. Of course anything that can't be broken out and thus assigned to other 'roll your own' or homebrew themes tends towards making the official themes more desirable and penalizes people for wanting to do something unique. It could be argued that the increased flexibility you get from picking whatever you want might make up for that, but it isn't clear that would be true. It also brings up other questions like just how many feats is a theme worth? Is it always a fixed number? I'd assume it would have to be. It at least clearly illustrates that there are design challenges to the whole concept, but I guess they're probably no worse than those with any other game elements. It will be interesting to see how they hash all this out.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 2:43PM
#42
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What if the Themes, while still being a container, also contain features? I don't know the right way to elaborate on that idea.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 2:47PM
#43
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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What if the Themes, while still being a container, also contain features? I don't know the right way to elaborate on that idea.
That is the right way to elaborate on the idea, which has been floated around at least four or five times already.
The obvious flaw in this plan is the fluidity of the contained feats. Just take the Theme with the awesome feature, then swap out all the feats, for the ones you actually wanted.
The most likely implementation will probably be that 'feature' as one of those (dreaded) level-one-only feats.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 2:55PM
#44
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What if the Themes, while still being a container, also contain features? I don't know the right way to elaborate on that idea.
That is the right way to elaborate on the idea, which has been floated around at least four or five times already.
The obvious flaw in this plan is the fluidity of the contained feats. Just take the Theme with the awesome feature, then swap out all the feats, for the ones you actually wanted.
The most likely implementation will probably be that 'feature' as one of those (dreaded) level-one-only feats.
That's the problem with this approach. The only thing I can think to do is not have features be that sort of thing. Be something similar.
Two of my favorite themes in 4th give implement proficiencies (rods or ki focus, depending on which theme).
Having access to an implement or weapon group as the feature and then the actual power being in the feat make some sense, but then question is why isn't that feature just another feat. Nothing I can think of as a feature would not likely be better served as a feat if modularity is the end-goal.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 2:57PM
#45
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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...but then question is why isn't that feature just another feat.
That's always going to be the question, and why Themes as "Feats, plus this other thing" isn't a very good idea. That 'other thing' is just a (barely) redressed feat.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 2:59PM
#46
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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anything that can't be broken out and thus assigned to other 'roll your own' or homebrew themes tends towards making the official themes more desirable and penalizes people for wanting to do something unique. It could be argued that the increased flexibility you get from picking whatever you want might make up for that, but it isn't clear that would be true.
I think it's all circumstantial. If there's a premade Theme you like, take that. If not, make one of your own out of feats. I think it opens up more design space for professional designers who can better balance a suite of features and feats, while letting the amatuers create a Theme out of feats alone. And of course, homebrewers will ahppily make their own Themes with homebrewed features that everyone will decy is overpowered and munchkinny. 
It also brings up other questions like just how many feats is a theme worth?
Pick a number and make it consistent throughout the game.
It will be interesting to see how they hash all this out.
Agreed.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 3:01PM
#47
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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...but then question is why isn't that feature just another feat.
That's always going to be the question, and why Themes as "Feats, plus this other thing" isn't a very good idea. That 'other thing' is just a (barely) redressed feat.
To which the answer is "balance". Chances are, the feature people wished were feats are probably the features more powerful than a signle feat.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 3:10PM
#48
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...but then question is why isn't that feature just another feat.
That's always going to be the question, and why Themes as "Feats, plus this other thing" isn't a very good idea. That 'other thing' is just a (barely) redressed feat.
To which the answer is "balance". Chances are, the feature people wished were feats are probably the features more powerful than a signle feat.
Which brings us back to the argument that if a theme has that feature and is customizable, then the theme will get picked and people will just put whatever feats fit their build.
Perhaps if themes have features that are exclusive, then they have less feats.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 3:15PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jul 25, 2003
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I think Backgrounds will break away from Class Skills, or the make-your-own Backgrounds will. And WotC have stated Skills will be retrodifferent, so a bonus to canoeing isn't gonna balance with much of anything in a Dark Sun campaign.
2nd Thieving Skills were more detailed than Nonweapon Proficiencies, which I think may be the case in Next. If there was a Theme or Feats that opened up these Thieveing Skills to other classes, would that be cool?
It's been too long since I dug out my 2e books, so I'm not positive I know what you're talking about, but I'm pretty sure I follow you. I could see that working, but I'm not sure why you need a different subsystem from Skills to model "thieving skills." I just don't see why it makes a better game to have to make everyone else jump through hoops to be stealthy (or do anything else "thiefy"), or to put sneaking skills in a completely different subsystem from other skills.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 3:48PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2007
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I was kinda hoping themes to be more "character defining" than feats typically are. I was hoping that some things that are typically only available through class features in 4e (but are sometimes themes, but generally not feats) could be picked up by DDN themes. For instance, the following kind of stuff:
Having a defender's mark or aura (4e class feature/theme)
Having an animal companion (4e class feature/theme)
Having a pact blade or other magic, summonable weapon (4e class/theme/paragon path)
Being able to shapeshift (4e class/theme)
etc etc etc
Things like the list above typically fell into the purview of class features or themes, rather than feats (perhaps familiars are an exception to this trend) and if DDN themes are merely a delivery method for feats, it makes me wonder what DDN feats are going to be like.
If DDN feats cover a much broader array of build options, then perhaps there's no problem, although balance may be an issue (gaining a true defender's mark via a single feat with no prerequisites sounds like it would be easily abused by any ranged character, for instance). If DDN feats are very similar to 4e feats, then I'd be concerned that DDN may not allow for much customisation at all (although perhaps it could be made up for in other regards, such as through a more robust multiclassing system than 4e enjoys).
If DDN themes combine perks that aren't also feats, combined with preselected feats, then that begs the question - what if you want the perk but not those particular feats? Is the theme balanced because it forces you to take underpowered feats to get your nice perk? I think the design team should be working hard to avoid the existence of undesirable feats.
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