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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 8:06AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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The recent article on fighters by Mike Mearls got me thinking about wizards. If a wizard can blast every spell it has at a foe, and it still isn't in any way equal to a fighter, what is the point of being a wizard? Powerful combat spells are a staple of the wizard. But, I agree with Mearls, the fighter needs to be hands down the best character in straight up combat! So how can one achieve both goals? I was thinking, why not include powerful combat spells which are balanced by two factors: 1) casting times in the rounds, casting times which can be interrupted (very old school D&D); and 2) magical recharge times. By magical recharge times, I mean that powerful spells should come equipped with a statistic which lists a number of rounds which the wizard must wait before they can cast another spell. In that time all they can cast are cantrips and feat based at-wills. The faster the casting time of a powerful spell, the longer its magical recharge time... the end result is that the spellcaster can nova for more damage (or more powerful effects) than a fighter can ever dream of, but the fighter will always have a higher DPR; this idea will also combat the 5 minute workday, as wizards cannot simply enter a fight, cast all their spells, and then demand that the party rest. Wizards will be forced to wait rounds in-between casting powerful spells.
Anyway, just an idea.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 4:53PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2004
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An idea: Drop the concept of spell levels. Simply have spells, that a wizard can cast at any level equal to or less than his or her caster class level. Have spells increase in power if they are cast at a higher level. Give the wizard a waiting time for higher level cast spells equal to the level cast at. Take the 2nd Chromatic Orb (I prefer 1st ed as there were 12 levels instead of 9, gave us more to look forward to as we leveled)
Table 16: Chromatic Orb Effects
Level of Color of Orb Hit Points Special
Caster Generated of Damage Power
1st White 1-4 Light
2nd Red 1-6 Heat
3rd Orange 1-8 Fire
4th Yellow 1-10 Blindness
5th Green 1-12 Stinking Cloud
6th Turquoise 2-8 Magnetism
7th Blue 2-16 Paralysis
8th Violet slow Petrification
9th Black paralysis Death
Let the caster cast the 1st level version all he or she wants, but if he or she casts the 9th level version he or she has to wait 9 rounds before casting the 9th level version again.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 5:01PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Feb 15, 2008
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I think you're seeing a legitimate problem, but I don't care for the particulars of your solution. The problem with casting times is it makes for rounds of play where you do nothing. The recharge time is interesting, but I would propose a different solution: give spellcasters a pool of points that recharge after a short rest. Every spell they prepare for the day costs so many points to cast. Thus, they are still essentially Vancian, but there isn't a workday problem.
"So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been."
- Manwë, High King of the Valar
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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 5:04PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2012
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Any time a player spends their round doing nothing the game is failing at its job. Increased casting times are a terrible idea from a game play perspective.
In my games players have always been Exceptional individuals, not Exceptions to the internal logic of the game world.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 5:13PM
#5
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Increased casting times can work, but only if the spell in question takes effect at the start of your next turn. After the first round the wizard will be constantly churning out spells. This also allows enemies to interrupt the cast. This way the wizard is not necessarily giving up a turn to cast a spell.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 7:16PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2004
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No sir, I don't like it. Multi-round casting times:
1. Don't do jack monkey squat to non-combat spells
2. Make pre-combat buffs even more desirable than they already were in comparison to combat spells
3. Create a brittle foundation to balance against non-casters in combat (how many fighter attacks is a 2-round casting level 7 spell worth?)
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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 8:18PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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Frankly I prefer the idea of the Wizard tossing out spells to wear the Fighter down instead of just pointing his finger and saying 'Boom'. Not that they shouldn't have any 'boom' potential, but I'd rather have a fight between a Fighter and a Wizard be more dynamic. Fighter charging the Wizard, Wizard pulling up walls and summoning minions and throwing out hexes or whatever it is that they're going to be doing, and the Fighter either breaking through them or manuvering around them while possibly managing a few attacks of their own by throwing debris at the Wizard to break her concentration.
It would require that their spells not have a lot of 'oomph' so to speak, but it feels more energetic to have a Fighter and a Wizard really throwing attacks at each other and both keeping the importance of mobility in mind. Your suggestion seems like it would be the Wizard opening big and either stopping the Fighter there, or failing and then just stalling defeat until he can launch another big spell. I'd like a fight between two classes to have more action and movement.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 30, 2012 - 9:12PM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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The recent article on fighters by Mike Mearls got me thinking about wizards. If a wizard can blast every spell it has at a foe, and it still isn't in any way equal to a fighter, what is the point of being a wizard?
The same point it's always had.
In the mechanics of the game, when the wizard isn't cheesing Wish, he's essentially a naked fighter throwing hand grenades at the enemy. Area-effects is what the Wizard does.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:08AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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The recent article on fighters by Mike Mearls got me thinking about wizards. If a wizard can blast every spell it has at a foe, and it still isn't in any way equal to a fighter, what is the point of being a wizard?
I think the idea was that the wizard was /merely/ equal to the fighter vs other foes. The blast-every-spell example was a PvP one, probably spurious and meant to get accross the idea of the fighter as being an equal, not a superior.
Even so, why use limitted vancian resources to massacre an army when a fighter can do it in a few more rounds, anyway? Why indeed, when that's all the fighter can do, and the wizard can do so much more!
Presumably the 5e vancian wizard gets back the toys 4e took away: the much longer list of spells known, more spell slots, discounted item creation, independently-acting summons (and other action-economy adjusters), more utility spells that can be swapped for combat spells when you're confident you won't be fighting and vice-versa.
So, the fighter uses unlimitted resources to fight, really well. The wizard uses limitted resources to overcome any other challenge, or a combat challenge, if the fighter is Sir Not Able To Make This Session.
The dynamic is obvious. The fighter is a lower-value resource good for one thing, so you use it for that one thing as much as possible, reserving the more valuable resources for challenges the energizer-bunny-like fighter can't beat a solution out of.
Powerful combat spells are a staple of the wizard. But, I agree with Mearls, the fighter needs to be hands down the best character in straight up combat! So how can one achieve both goals?
I believe I just did that, above. The fighter is the best at straighforward combat. Remember, "best" in marketing speak means "just as good as anything else." Any foe that can be defeated by straightforward combat can be defeated by the fighter if it can be defeated by anyone else. The wizard's powerful combat spells can still be there. They won't be any better than the fighter on a good day, but they will be far from the only spells the wizard has, and when the combat challenge is so overwhelming that it calls for the combat power of two fighters, the wizard can expend some of his precious spell resources to make up the gap.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 11:01AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 13, 2012
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The point of the wizard should be an assistance to the fighter or rogue and the party in general.
Big enemy do use some attack spells. Rogue can't pick a lock use knock. Need some extra strength or dex wave my hands and poof. Lots of creatures let me whip out my fireball but give me a minute so I can stoneskin or mirror image in case they don't all die.
Both lvl 1 much better odds for fighter, both lvl 20 much better odds for the wizard. The roleplaying aspect of the two classes are very different and are meant to be that way. Can a wizard do as much or more then a fighter in combat and a lot more outside of it.
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