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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 11:57AM
#11
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The point of the wizard should be an assistance to the fighter or rogue and the party in general.
Big enemy do use some attack spells. Rogue can't pick a lock use knock. Need some extra strength or dex wave my hands and poof. Lots of creatures let me whip out my fireball but give me a minute so I can stoneskin or mirror image in case they don't all die.
It seems like you read Tony's eloquent summary above and decided all the bad things were good ones. To be clear, the wizard as the guy with the valuable resources is what concerns people. Here's what I think when I read your post:
If I play a rogue, that means my job is to walk up to every door to check for traps, listen for hints of what's on the other side, and pick any locks. If we think the traps are really scary, maybe the wizard will use his precious resources. He could summon a creature to set off the traps or levitate us past them. If a door looks imposing, maybe the wizard will use his valuable divinations to learn more than I could - and with less risk. If a lock is too hard, the wizard can open it for me.
If I play a fighter, the wizard will just watch me fight or use resources that barely matter when I smash things. If I'm in trouble because a fight is actually hard, he'll use his real spells to lower the difficulty enough that I can win.
I've probably posted something like this in a million threads by now, so I feel bad for anyone who still reads my posts. The above system makes the fighter and the rogue into sidekicks or henchmen. They take care of things the wizard doesn't want to use his superior resources on. When they struggle, he steps in and fixes the problem.
While you claim that the wizard is assisting the other party members, all your examples show that they are assisting him by taking care of the easy tasks so he can save himself to do the heavy lifting.The fact that those precious wizard resources are limited doesn't change the fundamental dynamic between magical and mundane classes in this system. As time goes on and the limits go away or become less relevant, that does change the dynamic, but in a really bad way. The wizard transitions from taking care of the important stuff to taking care of the stuff. You seem to outright advocate that when you say that at 20th level the wizard should be better in combat than the fighter!
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
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Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
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TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 1:48PM
#12
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Casting times slow down combat which is the opposite of one of the stated goals for DDN.
I honestly don't think wizards and fighters can be truly balanced. 4e came close, in my opinion, but that was because while everyone uses 'powers' the way in which a wizard and a fighter use their powers is remarkably different. Wizards are still the best, generally speaking, in 4th. I do not expect that to be untrue in DDN.
EDIT:
One way to keep charging spells from slowing down combats: Allow a caster to cast other spells while he is charging, that way he is still participating in combat while he charges up Summon Biggest Fish. Perhaps lower level spells only, or some other restriction on what can be cast while charging a spell. This might also require two implements (since one is busy being part of the spell-charging).
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1 year ago ::
May 01, 2012 - 10:50PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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I like this idea in this thread, because it forces the spell caster to think ahead before starting to cast a spell.
It is probably too late for WOTC to rewrite the spell system before the playtests, but perhaps they could include a spell caster class with slow casting in a later expansion. That could be fun.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 1:57AM
#14
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How about the spell the wizard is casting takes effect on the first round, but scales up in power as they continue to cast it, with the ability to be interupted before the spell is finished.
some examples:
Animate Dead
1st round - A weak skeleton rises up and fights.
2nd round - A weak zombie rises up and fights.
3rd round - A stronger skeleton rises up and fights.
4th round - A weak ghoul rise up and fights.
etc...etc...
Stinking Cloud
1st round - save or -1 to attack while in area
2nd round - save or -3 to attack while in area
3rd round - save or slowed
4th round - save or paralyzed
5th round - save or damaged 2d6
6th round - save or be knocked unconscious.
etc...etc...
Heat Metal
1st round - get a -1 to attack
2nd round - get a -1 to attack and take 1d4 damage.
3rd round - get a -2 to attack and take 1d6 damage.
4th round - get a -2 to attack and take 2d4 damage.
5th round - save or forced to take the whole round to get away from heated object.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 4:57AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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in the article it was said the figter should be the best character at fighting.
but figting isen't everything in a combat.
I think they are mainly talking about melee, in melee a figter should beet any other class in a fair fight ( using the same weapon)
and the reaction of the rogue to this would be "well that does not give me much incentive to fight fair now does it"
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 5:22PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2012
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The rogue is not supposed to fight fair. Thats kind of the whole idea.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 5:44PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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in the article it was said the figter should be the best character at fighting.
but figting isen't everything in a combat.
I think they are mainly talking about melee, in melee a figter should beet any other class in a fair fight ( using the same weapon)
and the reaction of the rogue to this would be "well that does not give me much incentive to fight fair now does it"
The Fighter should be able to beat anyone in a contest of pure fighting skill, but I wouldn't necessarily call that a 'fair' fight. Afterall, if you're fighting let's say a Swordmage, and you boast that if he didn't have his magic then you would tear him apart, I think it'd be perfectly in line for the Swordmage to note that he could beat a Fighter if that Fighter suddenly decided to ignore his years of training and experience.
Just different tools to achieve a similar result is all. Except the Rogue. If she isn't cheating then she isn't trying hard enough.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 7:00PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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Stinking Cloud
1st round - save or -1 to attack while in area
2nd round - save or -3 to attack while in area
3rd round - save or slowed
4th round - save or paralyzed
5th round - save or damaged 2d6
6th round - save or be knocked unconscious.
etc...etc....
Nice idea, but at the same time I am a little afraid that it will slow down then game, because the caster player cannot remember all the details of the spell in his head.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 7:09PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Apr 24, 2012
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You guys seriously need to check out the wotc "The Wheel of Time" RPG and more specifically the channeling system for the one power. Its probably my favorite magic system.
Most spells can be cast at multiple levels and they use up a different slot ( I usually use spell points) depending on what level you cast at.
Very much like what you're talking about.
You could also "overchannel" and cast a spell you weren't able to normally because it was beyond your level or because you didn't have enough slots left. You had to roll an endurance check and if you failed you would suffer in some way ; if you failed your roll badly enough you could still or gentle yourself.
The way they had the spells set up was simple enough.
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1 year ago ::
May 02, 2012 - 7:15PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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You guys seriously need to check out the wotc "The Wheel of Time" RPG and more specifically the channeling system for the one power. Its probably my favorite magic system.
Most spells can be cast at multiple levels and they use up a different slot ( I usually use spell points) depending on what level you cast at.
Very much like what you're talking about.
You could also "overchannel" and cast a spell you weren't able to normally because it was beyond your level or because you didn't have enough slots left. You had to roll an endurance check and if you failed you would suffer in some way ; if you failed your roll badly enough you could still or gentle yourself.
The way they had the spells set up was simple enough.
I thought spell slots ie the D&Disms kind of ruined it... There were certainly good ideas but it seemed that it would have been more elegant if it had been developed independently.
I couldnt look at the half dozen classes that the heros were built using without suffering eye bleed.
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