For certain campaigns like TheMormegil runs, I can see where a power like Silence might cause issues. However, I offer a rebuttal. This is based on my preferred style of play, and therefore, I hope to not insult other styles of play in making it.
I have ran games, particularly in the AD&D era that had over 20 encounters in one night. Even now in Pathfinder we can knock out 6 to 10 encounters in an evening. In this type of game, not every encounter is about, "Saving the day."
In these, more classic style games sitting out 10 minutes to 30 minutes due to a failed save, unconsciousness or death is just not a big deal. Besides, if you are still alive and moving, there is always something you can try, even if your class's main abilities are denied to you.
Penandpaper2 has touched on something else when he said, "...you either rely way too heavily on exactly what the character sheet gives you..."
I have seen this issue at the many conventions I game and DM at. Often, player and DM alike become stumped if what is on their sheet doesn't work as intended. The idea of improvising in the face of total adversity is an art and style of play that has often been lost.
Consider this: Many folks on these boards would decry a DM as a tyrant that sicked 3 werewolves on a party that was almost out of spells, had no magic or silver weapons and was 5th level. Yet that is exactly what happened in a 2e game back in the late '80's.
When our DM sprung this encounter on us, there was no whining, though there were some comments that went, "Holy cow, what are we going to do?" What did we do? What could we do as our character sheets said all our abilities were nullified or expended?
We used the rest of our magic, though it only weakened the werewolves. No one's listed weapons could hurt them.
The fighter, dropped his sword, spent a round and removed his gauntlets and then marched up and gave the lead lycan a knuckle sandwich (Natural attacks affect werewolves in 2e).
The Cleric wrapped the chain of his silver holy symbol around his fist to make a holy set of silver knuckles and said, "I give wolfy a faceful of God."
I pulled out my sling and used silver pieces as bullets.
The party thief used his 50' of rope with a mithril grappling hook to great affect.
One character had no silver of any kind but totally ruined the werewolves' day by spreading oil (creating slick conditions) and lighting it on fire (Fire hurts them) and once out of oil he used a torch.
We not only won, but no one died and not one case of was lycanthropy contracted. We had a heck of a good time and this encounter was one we talked about often over the following months. In fact, we liked it better than the climactic end boss encounter of the same dungeon we were just leaving when we hit this random encounter.
Now, an encounter like the above can happen in any edition, but it is a case of the path of least resistance: If a player's character has an ability that always works, then he will keep using it until it doesn't. At that point he usually has 3 choices: Die, flee or get creative and get it done.
Tying this back to Silence, a caster Silenced is just like a caster out of spells. Has no one here had a caster that ran out of magic? What did you do when it happened and you couldn't rest? Did you give up? A caster without spells is the same as a fighter facing a beast that his weapon can't harm. Has your warrior never encountered this situation? If this happened to your fighter, did you fold, or did you rise up and find a way?
To be sure, a good DM is required here. And yes, getting sacked by a spell like Hold Person or Petrify the whole battle is not the first choice a player would take if asked, "how he would like to spend the encounter." Then again, if he is never Held or Petrified, then where is the challenge?
I am not advocating SODs or bad DMing where the party is stripped of their abilities encounter after encounter and game after game. There is no excuse for that.
While there are those who see a Silence type spell as something that damages their gaming experience; there are those of us who see it as it simply is: Another challenge to be overcome. No more, no less.
For certain campaigns like TheMormegil runs, I can see where a power like Silence might cause issues. However, I offer a rebuttal. This is based on my preferred style of play, and therefore, I hope to not insult other styles of play in making it.
I have ran games, particularly in the AD&D era that had over 20 encounters in one night. Even now in Pathfinder we can knock out 6 to 10 encounters in an evening. In this type of game, not every encounter is about, "Saving the day."
In these, more classic style games sitting out 10 minutes to 30 minutes due to a failed save, unconsciousness or death is just not a big deal. Besides, if you are still alive and moving, there is always something you can try, even if your class's main abilities are denied to you.
Penandpaper2 has touched on something else when he said, "...you either rely way too heavily on exactly what the character sheet gives you..."
I have seen this issue at the many conventions I game and DM at. Often, player and DM alike become stumped if what is on their sheet doesn't work as intended. The idea of improvising in the face of total adversity is an art and style of play that has often been lost.
Consider this: Many folks on these boards would decry a DM as a tyrant that sicked 3 werewolves on a party that was almost out of spells, had no magic or silver weapons and was 5th level. Yet that is exactly what happened in a 2e game back in the late '80's.
When our DM sprung this encounter on us, there was no whining, though there were some comments that went, "Holy cow, what are we going to do?" What did we do? What could we do as our character sheets said all our abilities were nullified or expended?
We used the rest of our magic, though it only weakened the werewolves. No one's listed weapons could hurt them.
The fighter, dropped his sword, spent a round and removed his gauntlets and then marched up and gave the lead lycan a knuckle sandwich (Natural attacks affect werewolves in 2e).
The Cleric wrapped the chain of his silver holy symbol around his fist to make a holy set of silver knuckles and said, "I give wolfy a faceful of God."
I pulled out my sling and used silver pieces as bullets.
The party thief used his 50' of rope with a mithril grappling hook to great affect.
One character had no silver of any kind but totally ruined the werewolves' day by spreading oil (creating slick conditions) and lighting it on fire (Fire hurts them) and once out of oil he used a torch.
We not only won, but no one died and not one case of was lycanthropy contracted. We had a heck of a good time and this encounter was one we talked about often over the following months. In fact, we liked it better than the climactic end boss encounter of the same dungeon we were just leaving when we hit this random encounter.
Now, an encounter like the above can happen in any edition, but it is a case of the path of least resistance: If a player's character has an ability that always works, then he will keep using it until it doesn't. At that point he usually has 3 choices: Die, flee or get creative and get it done.
Tying this back to Silence, a caster Silenced is just like a caster out of spells. Has no one here had a caster that ran out of magic? What did you do when it happened and you couldn't rest? Did you give up? A caster without spells is the same as a fighter facing a beast that his weapon can't harm. Has your warrior never encountered this situation? If this happened to your fighter, did you fold, or did you rise up and find a way?
To be sure, a good DM is required here. And yes, getting sacked by a spell like Hold Person or Petrify the whole battle is not the first choice a player would take if asked, "how he would like to spend the encounter." Then again, if he is never Held or Petrified, then where is the challenge?
I am not advocating SODs or bad DMing where the party is stripped of their abilities encounter after encounter and game after game. There is no excuse for that.
While there are those who see a Silence type spell as something that damages their gaming experience; there are those of us who see it as it simply is: Another challenge to be overcome. No more, no less.
Cool stuff. I like encounters like that. However, there is an important difference between Silencing the caster and the above lycanthrope encounter: everybody was challenged.
I like running puzzle encounters. Encounters when the enemies are obviously stronger than the party but there is a trick, encounters when their standard abilities are challenged and they need to come up with new tricks, I love stuff like that, it's much more interesting than yet another room full of orcs. However, I make sure to be fair in how I treat my characters during this kind of encounter.
For instance. Suppose the lycan encounter was very important, story-wise. Suppose it was the climax of the campaign. And suppose 2/5 melee characters had silvered weapons, and the others didn't. Sure, those people could improvise and use silver coins as bullets, use their silvered chain to smash the lycans and all that jazz, but in most systems those tactics are pretty much underwhelming compared to a normal weapon. The two guys with silver weapons would be hitting hard and being at the center of the attention, while the other 3 would be out of luck. If the first two deal 250% more damage than the other three combined, it's easy to spot. Damage is declared, apparent. A situation like that is not satisfying, the other three will feel useless and cheated out of their climax. The encounter wouldn't have gone nearly as well nor be nearly as memorable if that was the case - I'm pretty sure you'll agree that if the fighter had a silver weapon in your party the encounter would be a whole lot less enjoyable, and probably would have gone very differently. It is entirely possible most people wouldn't have even improvised solutions, unless the fighter was really in trouble, and even then, it would most likely be something to keep the fighter on his toes than something to hurt the enemies.
The silenced condition, much like the stunned condition, are single target. Well, duh, a mass-stun would mean TPK on most occasions. That means that there is one person feeling useless for that fight. Not the whole party being challenged, just that one person being told "tough luck kid, you'll be more useful next time when you don't fail your save on round 1". That's what I dislike.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
Actually, for me, even if the other guy had the silver sword and I didn't, I would still bust out the silver pieces. Then again I am the type who makes extensive use out of page 42 and in Pathfinder I allow and encourage my players to try different things.
Of course Silence is an AoE (in 3.5 and earlier), so it can affect every sound dependent character build in the area, but it is usually easy to get out of it so I never really had any heartburn with it.
I think a lot of it has to do with who we gamed with and how we "grew up" gaming wise. While I never danced with joy at getting paralyzed it never bothered me much either. I never felt like I was missing out just because I failed a save. It's funny, but I am more amenable to being nullified as a player than I am as a DM in nullifying my players.
As a DM, I rarely use the save or suck spells for the reasons you outline above. Some of my players feel I am too soft; on the other hand, I have guy who cries at the first sign of damage and wow can the whining be epic if he fails a save that takes him out of the action. The two extremes in a single game..lucky me...
I too enjoy puzzle encounters (both as DM and player) as long as the puzzle is solvable and not an exercise in "Let's play Read the DM's Mind."
I am of the feeling that improvised play does seem to be a bit of a dying art. Sure, there are those who try it, but I am not lying when I say that I have been in many games where folks give up because something didn't work the way they intended. I am not sure why this seems to be on the rise, for 4e and 3.5 have provisions for creative play; it just seems there is an increase of folks who would rather give up or whine about it than get it done.
Consider this: Many folks on these boards would decry a DM as a tyrant that sicked 3 werewolves on a party that was almost out of spells, had no magic or silver weapons and was 5th level. Yet that is exactly what happened in a 2e game back in the late '80's.
Cool encounter.
I remember having to drown a werewolf with a character in a similar situation.
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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
You know, I've been thinking (theoretically) about this line I wrote.
Sure, those people could improvise and use silver coins as bullets, use their silvered chain to smash the lycans and all that jazz, but in most systems those tactics are pretty much underwhelming compared to a normal weapon.
Why is it so? Well, for one thing, it makes sense. A weapon is a weapon for a reason, being able to be effective with a table or a chainsaw is not exactly realistic. It is also because that way you have an incentive to use weapons and similar things rather than just spending your entire evening trying to kill the goblins with fork and spoon. However, the issue often extends to improvised actions, and some cool stuff never gets actually done. If you have the opportunity to bash the werewolf with a handful of God or to use Flame Strike on it, then you will Flame Strike it. The system is punishing the cool moment there.
Do we need something to incentivate improvised actions in the game? In my opinion, yes. Stuff like the above is what is remembered years after the session it happened in. It's worth having in a game. Have it too often, though, and it becomes... banal. There must be a tradeoff. Exalted offers a stunt system, which in my experience more often than not ends up being the second extreme: people try to do awesome stuff when they dry their laundry for a +1 die bonus. Being that the whole point of the game, I can understand the rule, but I am not really at home with it. The table on p42 is a good improvement, but still, using your at-will for 1d8+45 damage or improvising for 4d6+7 is not really a choice.
I might start a thread on this to brainstorm some solutions.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.
No, I don't. I want them to balance magic with everything else, so they don't feel compelled to put a lot of arbitrary hoser mechanics into the system rather than 'we'll make it overpowered, then throw on all this other crap and pretend it's balanced'.
I hate conditions that take the player out of the game. Silenced, anti-magic fields, stunned, paralyzed ... all need to either go, or stay gone if they already are.
Not to derail the thread but this is the classic narrativist vs simulationist debate. As a simulationist I want all those things because well they seem like things that could really happen. I'm not as worried as others about a player getting upset that his character is down for a round or two. Ok back to thread. Just thought it was a good example Salla.
I like groups having to think on their feet when faced with unusual circumstances.
Any mechanic that completely hoses a character should do so for no more than one round. 6 seconds is a long time in combat. Any more than that and you might as well tell the player to come back when the fight is over. Furthermore these effects should be rare. They only limit fun at the table. I cannot think of anyone who enjoys being made obsolete for a whole fight. There are much better ways to challenge a group than to use arbitrary "hose" mechanics.
Simply put, stunlock is no fun for anyone. Take old school sleep or hold person. They are win buttons. I am currently playing a castles and crusades game and even at first level it has devolved into rocket tag. A single sleep spell turns a fight that we would surely lose into a cakewalk. Hold person on our party barbarian left him with nothing to do but sit and watch. If you can stunlock the boss there is no there is no challenge to a fight. If the boss can stunlock you then there is no point in being present. I don't even like save ends for such effects as there is the potential to be out for a whole fight. I would much prefer an end of next turn mechanic for these abilities and have them limited so they cannot be strung together or used multiple times per adventuring day.
Simply put, stunlock is no fun for anyone. Take old school sleep or hold person. They are win buttons. I am currently playing a castles and crusades game and even at first level it has devolved into rocket tag. A single sleep spell turns a fight that we would surely lose into a cakewalk. Hold person on our party barbarian left him with nothing to do but sit and watch. If you can stunlock the boss there is no there is no challenge to a fight. If the boss can stunlock you then there is no point in being present. I don't even like save ends for such effects as there is the potential to be out for a whole fight. I would much prefer an end of next turn mechanic for these abilities and have them limited so they cannot be strung together or used multiple times per adventuring day.
Interesting that you are playing C&C. Based on your posts here that I've seen (which isn't a ton I realize but some), I'd guess you'd prefer 4e most of the time. Is this a going along to get along with friends?
