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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 11:08AM
#101
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I agree with leozelig about the "clunky" aspects of 1e. I don't want a return to 1e, I want a return to fast paced, abstract combat. As a DM, I want to tell a story, not coreograph a "cinematic" battle sequence (especially one that takes 90 minutes to complete).
@Xguild. I don't know about 3e, but reading the 3.5e DMG1 and PHB1 left me with the distinct impression that miniatures play was the main goal during design. I totally agree with you about tactics interfering with narration of a story.
Based on my reading of the 5e posts by the actual designers, miniatures play will be an option. It will not be either explicitly or implicitly required.
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1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 5:30PM
#102
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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The original 3e release definitely hinted at miniatures, but the rules for such were sort of wibbly-wobbly. 3.5 structured grid-size and melee reach by creature size, had further defined line of sight and effect by square corners, simplified Cover (and perhaps Concealment?) into two categories instead 10%/20%/30%/40%/etc. AoE effects were changed to make grid usage easier (Burning Hands, for example, originally covered a 15-ft.-radius half-circle instead of a 15-ft.-cone). And, probably least importantly, 3.5 changed all the example combat illustrations to use Chainmail miniatures on a grid.
Using a battlemap was still ideal in the unrevised 3e, but the rules weren't written with them in mind. Now that I'm looking at my 3.5 PH, it explicitly says that you need a battlemap and minatures...
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 9:29AM
#103
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... effects were changed to make grid usage easier... This right here is, I believe, one of the main reasons some people had such a disagreement with 4E. The tail (grid) was seriously wagging the dog (everything else) for them.
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1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 10:22AM
#104
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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The only effect I can think of that 4e further changed to make grid usage easier than 3.5 was switching out sphere-shaped Emanations, Spreads, Bursts and other odd-shaped AoEs (Cones & Cylinders) for square Bursts and Blasts. This change would seem too homogenous, but for my part, after trying in vain to draw a circular AoE or being caught off-guard by how weird cones could get, I'm okay with squares. That's not to say that's the only grid-inspired change, though. Movement was made far more common because of how static the Full Attack-ey 3e often became (usually people just took 5-foot steps to either adjust to the shuffling 'congo line of death' or to avoid having to roll an easy Concentration check to casting defensively). Squares were adopted in place of 5-foot measurements, where previously in 3.5 movement was listed both ways; I've heard from a number of fans that that makes things a bit easier for the metric-inclined folks around the world, so I'm gonna say this was a good move. Perhaps related to grid usage (I'm leaning more towards martial/caster balance), spell and weapon ranges were also reduced; your invisible, flying mage isn't gonna be chucking a Fireball from 600+ feet away any longer!
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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1 year ago ::
May 09, 2012 - 2:06AM
#105
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I'd argue that a lot of other things go along with the grid. Philosophical changes to the system that are justified in other ways but also just happen to make it easier to resolve combat as a tactical miniatures game.
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1 year ago ::
May 09, 2012 - 2:14AM
#106
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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As a DM, I want to tell a story, not coreograph a "cinematic" battle sequence (especially one that takes 90 minutes to complete).
I don't know if 3rd edition really did it better than 4th edition, but I found that unless the combat was really complex (aka lots of mage casters), most combats where relatively short and where very easy to track narratively with more abstraction, hence the grid wasn't required. And the truth is that I actually like tactical combat when the scene and the particular combat is a larger, more important fight to the story. So sometimes I want the combats to be big, epic, tactical battles where players are going to expand every concievable tactic in and effort to defeat and potentially deadly encounter. But when its a pre-liminary ecounter designed to tap the resources of the group a bit and entertain them, I find abstraction is more interesting.
I suppose thats why I like WFRP 3.0 combat, its an abstracted combat but it holds enough tactical elements in order to make for some very cool epic fights and of course because the whole thing takes a lot less time and effort to both setup and execute.
So Im kind on the fence with the whole miniatures/tactical combat thing, I can't say I dislike it, but I do think it can be done a lot better and preferably a lot quicker. I mean if you could have quick tactical battles in 4th edition it would make for a much more fluid game, but even a small group of goblins may result in a 45 minute grindathon and it seems like many monster abilities are intentinally designed to slow up the game, allowing for random healing, re-surgence and other elements that increase the length of battles. Not to mention the considerably higher hitpoint count of monsters which is not proportional to damage done.
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1 year ago ::
May 09, 2012 - 10:05AM
#107
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I agree completely with people that want to speed up combat. I don't agree with people that say the game was a board game...
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1 year ago ::
May 09, 2012 - 10:33AM
#108
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Things I'm hoping 5E offers that my current Pathfinder game does not have.
- Relatively rules light. Or even Rules Medium is fine. Pathfinder core book is 500+ pages. Its crazy. The Beginner box is a great way to cut down on the rules, but its a way to take people from with no experience to move them into the core 500 page book. I'm looking for a 128 page book with nothing more I need as a player and a first time GM. Additional books (and more advanced books) offer more if I so choose, but I want more than just level 5. I really do not feel the PFRPG BB offers that.
- A rich setting with unexplored areas. FR is a rich setting. It has things that make sense and things that do not and it works. Pathfinder's setting has alot in it but ... alot of things just don't make sense on their face. There's the Pirate country. ... WHAT! A pirate country! How can that be without it turning into a place as impoverished and desolate as Somalia. I have trouble wrapping my head around that one. Then there's Varisia, country of many environments all in one. Ideal place for all adventuring. Go over there and there's baren desert/scorched earthscape. But not far away is lush plains and forests. It borders the country of orcs. It has a pirate city and highly lawful capital. I mean, everything about it just screams adventureland, making it hard for me to believe. I want some place that I can believe is true (given the assumptions of the setting like magic and elves are real).
- A way to take out alignment is I so desire. I've seen attempts for it in 3.x and in pathfinder and I always feel the effects are disasterous. I play other RPGs without any kind of alignment and it works just fine. Why can't we have that for a d20 based game.
Just a few things I would like.
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1 year ago ::
May 09, 2012 - 2:25PM
#109
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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I'd argue that a lot of other things go along with the grid. Philosophical changes to the system that are justified in other ways but also just happen to make it easier to resolve combat as a tactical miniatures game.
My post was more concerned with rules designed specifically to facilitate grid usage. Any simplifications or nerfs to flight or caster power can be seen as grid-enabling.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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1 year ago ::
May 09, 2012 - 5:44PM
#110
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2012
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Historically there have been Pirate countries. I love Pathfinders world (mostly), probably more than their game.
I've been looking at retroclones of late and I lean ACK.
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