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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 6:58PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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@MechaPilot Here's my take
1. Monte practically divorced his wife to work on D&D 5e (I'm sure it's more than that but the geography strain is part of it I think). It's not about money. 2. Monte is a class act and he won't badmouth his former employer. My gosh the guy wouldn't even badmouth 4e other than to say it just wasn't his style of game. He really is a mild mannered nice guy. Which is why it really torks me when people here claim he is this power mad egomaniac. 3. My theory is they hit one of Monte's deal breakers. I don't know what that is but they crossed that line. That is my theory. It is a theory. I don't absolutely agree with Monte on everything so obviously it might not be a dealbreaker for me but I wouldn't want to bet on that.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 7:03PM
#22
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@MechaPilot Here's my take
1. Monte practically divorced his wife to work on D&D 5e (I'm sure it's more than that but the geography strain is part of it I think). It's not about money. 2. Monte is a class act and he won't badmouth his former employer. My gosh the guy wouldn't even badmouth 4e other than to say it just wasn't his style of game. He really is a mild mannered nice guy. Which is why it really torks me when people here claim he is this power mad egomaniac. 3. My theory is they hit one of Monte's deal breakers. I don't know what that is but they crossed that line. That is my theory. It is a theory. I don't absolutely agree with Monte on everything so obviously it might not be a dealbreaker for me but I wouldn't want to bet on that.
Ok. I get that. Just a small question though.
This is what Monte actually said: Last week I decided that I would leave my contract position with Wizards of the Coast. I am no longer working on Dungeons & Dragons, although I may provide occasional consultation in the future. My decision is one based on differences of opinion with the company. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell. I enjoyed every moment of working with them over the past year. I have faith that they'll create a fun game. I'm rooting for them.
Would it have been "badmouthing a former employer" if he had said this instead: Last week I decided that I would leave my contract position with Wizards of the Coast. I am no longer working on Dungeons & Dragons, although I may provide occasional consultation in the future. My decision is one based on creative differences. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell. I enjoyed every moment of working with them over the past year. I have faith that they'll create a fun game. I'm rooting for them.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin." NPC: "Really?" Fighter: "Yes." NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?" Fighter: "I do." NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?" Fighter: "What?" NPC: "I don't know what it means either." Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do." NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics." Fighter: "These what?" NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
taking an argument too far
Show
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 7:17PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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Ok. I get that. Just a small question though.
This is what Monte actually said: Last week I decided that I would leave my contract position with Wizards of the Coast. I am no longer working on Dungeons & Dragons, although I may provide occasional consultation in the future. My decision is one based on differences of opinion with the company. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell. I enjoyed every moment of working with them over the past year. I have faith that they'll create a fun game. I'm rooting for them.
Would it have been "badmouthing a former employer" if he had said this instead: Last week I decided that I would leave my contract position with Wizards of the Coast. I am no longer working on Dungeons & Dragons, although I may provide occasional consultation in the future. My decision is one based on creative differences. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell. I enjoyed every moment of working with them over the past year. I have faith that they'll create a fun game. I'm rooting for them.
No. But the first paragraph could mean exactly the same thing. It would have been more harmful to WOTC if he had put out the second paragraph. He would have rallied the anti-4e crew against D&D5e (more so than we already are). He's just not a spiteful evil guy. That doesn't mean he didn't have creative differences. I can't imagine anything but those kinds of differences getting him to leave. I can't imagine it being pay, vacation, even release schedule or OGL. Honestly none of those are essential to the game. He could still be part of producing a great game regardless of those other things. He might have an opinion but I don't see him giving up on D&D for those things.
Also he didn't mention everyone. And the people he didn't mention are in my opinion those most likely defending 4e. I also think Mearls response is somewhat indicative. Monte can't always have his way. I agree but Monte isn't going to put his name on something he thinks is bad so they parted. Good luck with that. They hit one of his dealbreakers.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 7:32PM
#24
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Also he didn't mention everyone. And the people he didn't mention are in my opinion those most likely defending 4e. I also think Mearls response is somewhat indicative. Monte can't always have his way. I agree but Monte isn't going to put his name on something he thinks is bad so they parted. Good luck with that. They hit one of his dealbreakers.
He also didn't say that he left so he could live a robust life before Dec 21, 2012 hit and the world exploded. I know a certain amount of reading-between-the-lines is required in this world, but jumping to a worst-case scenario based on the ommission of Mearls' name from his comment seems a little like overdoing it to me. There are certainly other reasons why he might have ommitted him. Maybe Monte just doesn't like Mearls (in the sense of personality conflict). If he is the kind of guy you say he is, then he may well ascribe to the old addage of "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."
Ultimately, it still comes down to a "wait-and-see" for the quality of the final product.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin." NPC: "Really?" Fighter: "Yes." NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?" Fighter: "I do." NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?" Fighter: "What?" NPC: "I don't know what it means either." Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do." NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics." Fighter: "These what?" NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
taking an argument too far
Show
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 7:38PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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Also he didn't mention everyone. And the people he didn't mention are in my opinion those most likely defending 4e. I also think Mearls response is somewhat indicative. Monte can't always have his way. I agree but Monte isn't going to put his name on something he thinks is bad so they parted. Good luck with that. They hit one of his dealbreakers.
He also didn't say that he left so he could live a robust life before Dec 21, 2012 hit and the world exploded. I know a certain amount of reading-between-the-lines is required in this world, but jumping to a worst-case scenario based on the ommission of Mearls' name from his comment seems a little like overdoing it to me. There are certainly other reasons why he might have ommitted him. Maybe Monte just doesn't like Mearls (in the sense of personality conflict). If he is the kind of guy you say he is, then he may well ascribe to the old addage of "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."
Ultimately, it still comes down to a "wait-and-see" for the quality of the final product.
To put it in D&D terms. Monte gave 5e a charisma based circumstantial bonus of +4. Him leaving after having came, moves it to a -2 penalty. But even given all that they still get to roll their d20.
I've just decided I'm not buying a slightly refactored version of 4e. I'm sure some here would love that. And they should buy it if that is what they like. I don't see though many people who left D&D coming back to a game that is only slightly different than the one they left.
My problem is that I don't really love Pathfinder either. I wish I did I'd just go there and not look back. Maybe Pathfinder 2e will be what I am looking for.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 7:43PM
#26
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Also he didn't mention everyone. And the people he didn't mention are in my opinion those most likely defending 4e. I also think Mearls response is somewhat indicative. Monte can't always have his way. I agree but Monte isn't going to put his name on something he thinks is bad so they parted. Good luck with that. They hit one of his dealbreakers.
He also didn't say that he left so he could live a robust life before Dec 21, 2012 hit and the world exploded. I know a certain amount of reading-between-the-lines is required in this world, but jumping to a worst-case scenario based on the ommission of Mearls' name from his comment seems a little like overdoing it to me. There are certainly other reasons why he might have ommitted him. Maybe Monte just doesn't like Mearls (in the sense of personality conflict). If he is the kind of guy you say he is, then he may well ascribe to the old addage of "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."
Ultimately, it still comes down to a "wait-and-see" for the quality of the final product.
To put it in D&D terms. Monte gave 5e a charisma based circumstantial bonus of +4. Him leaving after having came, moves it to a -2 penalty. But even given all that they still get to roll their d20.
I've just decided I'm not buying a slightly refactored version of 4e. I'm sure some here would love that. And they should buy it if that is what they like. I don't see though many people who left D&D coming back to a game that is only slightly different than the one they left.
I don't really think that's what we're going to end up with in DDN. As I said before though, it remains a wait-and-see situation for all of us.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin." NPC: "Really?" Fighter: "Yes." NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?" Fighter: "I do." NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?" Fighter: "What?" NPC: "I don't know what it means either." Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do." NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics." Fighter: "These what?" NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
taking an argument too far
Show
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 8:10PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Ok. I get that. Just a small question though.
This is what Monte actually said: Last week I decided that I would leave my contract position with Wizards of the Coast. I am no longer working on Dungeons & Dragons, although I may provide occasional consultation in the future. My decision is one based on differences of opinion with the company. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell. I enjoyed every moment of working with them over the past year. I have faith that they'll create a fun game. I'm rooting for them.
Would it have been "badmouthing a former employer" if he had said this instead: Last week I decided that I would leave my contract position with Wizards of the Coast. I am no longer working on Dungeons & Dragons, although I may provide occasional consultation in the future. My decision is one based on creative differences. However, I want to take this time to stress that my differences were not with my fellow designers, Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell. I enjoyed every moment of working with them over the past year. I have faith that they'll create a fun game. I'm rooting for them.
No. But the first paragraph could mean exactly the same thing. It would have been more harmful to WOTC if he had put out the second paragraph. He would have rallied the anti-4e crew against D&D5e (more so than we already are). He's just not a spiteful evil guy. That doesn't mean he didn't have creative differences. I can't imagine anything but those kinds of differences getting him to leave. I can't imagine it being pay, vacation, even release schedule or OGL. Honestly none of those are essential to the game. He could still be part of producing a great game regardless of those other things. He might have an opinion but I don't see him giving up on D&D for those things.
Also he didn't mention everyone. And the people he didn't mention are in my opinion those most likely defending 4e. I also think Mearls response is somewhat indicative. Monte can't always have his way. I agree but Monte isn't going to put his name on something he thinks is bad so they parted. Good luck with that. They hit one of his dealbreakers.
Dude is it possible that he just wanted to keep his updates coming on his blog and quickly wrote something on what might be an emotional day for him, and that Rob Schwalb and Bruce Cordell were just the two guys on the team that he worked with the most. I know at my job there are people on the teams I work on that I hardly even know the name of and I'm a mutant that always remembers names. Depending upon the light you shine on it it's either an clandestined coded message or just a guy talkin to the two guys he always hung out with at work.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 8:11PM
#28
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If 5e is anything like 4e, I won't be purchasing it.
I doubt that will be the case, but I have enough 4e material to be able to play that game for the next 10 years at least should I so choose to do so.
"If it's not a conjuration, how did the wizard
con·jure/ˈkänjər/Verb 1. Make (something) appear unexpectedly or seemingly from nowhere as if by magic.
it?" -anon
"Why don't you read fire·ball / fī(-ə)r-ˌbȯl/ and see if you can find the key word con.jure /'kən-ˈju̇r/ anywhere in it." -Maxperson
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 8:16PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2007
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Obviously it's all pure speculation why Monte left. I doubt it was because of some particular aspect of the playtest version of the game, though. (It's not like he said "You're including healing surges? I quit!!") And it doesn't sound like Monte is burning his bridges, he even specifically said he might do some consulting with WotC on the game down the line.
I did notice that Mike Mearls responded to both Monte leaving and the May 24th playtest in the same article, so it's not a stretch to imagine that corporate told Monte they need the playtest moved up to May 24th, Monte said that's not enough time or that it's too soon, they argued and he quit. Or maybe they are just pushing the development schedule way up overall and he didn't support it. Or it could the playtest date announcement and Monte leaving might be pure coincidence, who knows?
Ah well, I'm sure Monte will be fine either way. I'll certainly be curious to read what happened six months or a year from now he ever reveals more information about why he left.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 25, 2012 - 8:17PM
#30
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Also in product development, I'm frequently signing NDAs and do-not-compete style docs.
I sometimes leave projects for creative differences sometimes for reorganization and once for another job. But simply because I leave doesn't mean I don't endorse what I was working on.
Further, I wouldnt want to burn bridges (classy guy or not) because it expos could expose me to litigation.
So let's just thank Monte for the hard work, look forward to his next awesome campaign setting, rock the 5/24 playtest, and quit whining or speculating like church ladies.
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