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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 10:37PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Posts like this piss me off. I don't care what version you play, or which version you prefer, none of you have the right to shove other people who don't play like you off into some pseudo-exile.
That's exactly how I felt when I frequented the 4e forums before 5e was announced. Everyone claimed that 4e was a godsend, but in truth all it did was push old school gamers to other systems. Even if we really wanted to be part of the community and tried our best to play 4e, our play style wasn't respected. There was only one way to play the game. As a result, the game suffered from a sickness of the present. Anyway, it's time for those people to Save or Die vs the Symbol Death that is 5e.
Wow. Just wow. I'm really not sure what to say to that, but I think you really need to re-evaluate your priorities in life.
I think you should reread what he said, because it's a spot on analysis of the situation that a LOT of us went through.
What, so you too wish death on people who disagree with you? Seriously...?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 12:35AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2010
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Posts like this piss me off. I don't care what version you play, or which version you prefer, none of you have the right to shove other people who don't play like you off into some pseudo-exile.
That's exactly how I felt when I frequented the 4e forums before 5e was announced. Everyone claimed that 4e was a godsend, but in truth all it did was push old school gamers to other systems. Even if we really wanted to be part of the community and tried our best to play 4e, our play style wasn't respected. There was only one way to play the game. As a result, the game suffered from a sickness of the present. Anyway, it's time for those people to Save or Die vs the Symbol Death that is 5e.
Wow. Just wow. I'm really not sure what to say to that, but I think you really need to re-evaluate your priorities in life.
I think you should reread what he said, because it's a spot on analysis of the situation that a LOT of us went through.
What, so you too wish death on people who disagree with you? Seriously...?
What in the world are you talking about? Nobody wished harm upon anyone. If you're talking about the last sentence it's not saying the people need to save or die themselves, it's saying the people need to roll a save or die mechanic versus 5th edition killing the symbol of D&D (symbolic reference to the game no longer being the game). At least that's how I took it.
DISCLAIMER - Everything said by anyone is absolute subjective opinion. There are no objective claims being made by me, or anyone else, unless they overtly state 'The following is an objective claim'. At this point if you choose to be offended by anything I (or anyone else) say the problem is ENTIRELY your own.
WotC won't let us give them money because they won't produce a game we want to play.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 6:42AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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It can't be any worse than what Atari did could it? I think exclusive rights are also no way to go either.
You can do worse than Atari. Way worse.
I also don't agree with the competition concern. I think the more D&D games there are the more D&D fans will buy them. Most people who played NWN played BG, and even ToEE. The hard core D&D fans have most likely played every D&D game since the gold box era.
Do you see a time-wise relationship between Baldurs Gate and NEverwinter? They were released years apart:
- Baldurs Gate - 1998
- Baldurs Gate 2 - 2000
- Neverwinter Nights - 2002
- Neverwinter Nights 2 - 2006
The time between the titles is a fair bit, that's why people played them all at their individual release times. If you make the lincence unbound (something I am not sure is really possible) then game releases would be less far apart and more or less spam the user with choices. If you are limited on cash (a fact that pertains to most people, I would argue) you have to choose between game titles you play. And if all of the titles were CRPGs with the inherent length of the same, you would have to choose which you devote your time to. Esentially that's like being your own competition, and in a bad way. Time and money are limited ressources for most of us, after all. Imagine if MS Office wasn't available on the Mac or if Microsoft was the only company allowed to develop applications for Windows. lol... they would be bankrupt already.
And this has an impact on the topic at hand how exactly?
I agree that the time released between the more recent D&D games was stagered. I don't agree that's why people played them at all. Most gamers I know, who like RPG games, play just about everything they can get their hands on.
In addition, most of the sales of video games don't come from the boys with the paper routes. The average gamer is much older and most of them have jobs. That's where most of the purchasing power comes from. You just can't make money if your target market is the poor.
Now the microsoft comment is relevant if you consider D&D as a platform. If WoTC closes their platform it won't become popular and it might fail. I think the more companies that create products for D&D, be that Pen and Paper games or video games, the more the system grows.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 6:56AM
#34
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I agree that the time released between the more recent D&D games was stagered. I don't agree that's why people played them at all. Most gamers I know, who like RPG games, play just about everything they can get their hands on.
In addition, most of the sales of video games don't come from the boys with the paper routes. The average gamer is much older and most of them have jobs. That's were most of the purchasing power comes from. You just can't make money if your target market it he poor.
And people without much time have to choose even more what to play, since time is a really hard constraint. It's an important thing one should keep in mind.
Now the microsoft comment is relevant if you consider D&D as a platform. If WoTC closes their platform it won't become popular and it might fail. I think the more companies that create products for D&D, be that Pen and Paper games or video games, the more the system grows.
D&D is not a 'platform', just as much as Halo or Dragon Age aren't a platform. This whole comment makes no sense.
Microsoft (rather, Windows in specific) needs other companies since Microsoft only gives you an extensively limited subset of tools to work with: The Operating System, Office and a few other tools (Visio, for example).
The two don't relate even remotely.
If you have questions about 4th Edition - don't hesitate to ask me via PMs. Join the Community Monster Manual Group and help to collect a mass of monsters which will make your life as DM easier, and your life as Player pure hell!  I am a cartographer. You can find some of my maps in my profile, free for non-commercial use. Also, if you happen to like maps or make them yourselves, join into the Cartographers Group!
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 7:51AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2008
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I would like to know one thing. It seems no one really asked or defined it.
What is "Old School"?
I, personally, hope no one considers Ver. 3 or above "Old School".
I think the original AD&D or D&D box sets would be "Old School".
If you are not having fun; stop what you are doing and do something else.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 8:13AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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Posts like this piss me off. I don't care what version you play, or which version you prefer, none of you have the right to shove other people who don't play like you off into some pseudo-exile.
That's exactly how I felt when I frequented the 4e forums before 5e was announced. Everyone claimed that 4e was a godsend, but in truth all it did was push old school gamers to other systems. Even if we really wanted to be part of the community and tried our best to play 4e, our play style wasn't respected. There was only one way to play the game. As a result, the game suffered from a sickness of the present. Anyway, it's time for those people to Save or Die vs the Symbol Death that is 5e.
Wow. Just wow. I'm really not sure what to say to that, but I think you really need to re-evaluate your priorities in life.
I think you should reread what he said, because it's a spot on analysis of the situation that a LOT of us went through.
What, so you too wish death on people who disagree with you? Seriously...?
What in the world are you talking about? Nobody wished harm upon anyone. If you're talking about the last sentence it's not saying the people need to save or die themselves, it's saying that people need to roll a save or die mechanic versus 5th edition killing the symbol of D&D (symbolic reference to the game no longer being the game). At least that's how I took it.
Yes, please I'm not wishing harm on anyone 
I think 'Save or Die' is a mechanic that is taboo around here and not understood. For these people, the Symbol of Death Spell (which is an old school SoD spell) is exactly what 5e will become for them. These are the players who will be forced to 'save or die’
If 5e lives up to what it has promised, the only players who will be turned off by the game are those who insist that their game is the pinnacle of Role playing. No longer will they have a rule set that is exclusive to their particular play style. They will not be in a position to dismiss a large portion of D&D players and accuse them of nostalgia. The 'sickness of the present' mentality will also be forced to Save or Die.
With that said, I tried my best to play 4e 'old school'. It took a lot of extra work on my part to figure out how to play 4e with an old school feel. In the end, the key was finding players who could play the game and not be upset when I broke a 4e tenet. They had to accept that sometimes I might use a 2e rule or even pull out my wilderness survival guide from 1e. Oddly enough, I had no shortage of players when I advertised, '4e game starting with an old school feel'. I think the reason was that many D&D players felt kicked to the curb with 4e. Many gamers wanted to play 4e and use all the new material, but they were frequently told otherwise. The style of play the core 4e books encouraged coupled with the vitriol from the community on these forums pushed many gamers away. IMO there are other forums on the internet that are far more balanced in opinion. But yes, we do need the core books to clearly state that it’s ok to play ‘old school’. The books should encourage gamers to make their own house rules. In fact, I would like to see a 5e house rules forum be singled out as one of the most important forums on these boards when 5e is released. It should be front and centre and appear right under the 5e general discussion forum. The problem I had with 4e was that a house rule always had a negative connotation. On the forums, the response to any house rule was always to go and post your idea in the back corner or play another edition of D&D. After all, the system was far too immaculate to even need a house rule. And in order to keep it that way, house rules had to be hidden from view and not encouraged.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 8:33AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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I agree that the time released between the more recent D&D games was stagered. I don't agree that's why people played them at all. Most gamers I know, who like RPG games, play just about everything they can get their hands on.
In addition, most of the sales of video games don't come from the boys with the paper routes. The average gamer is much older and most of them have jobs. That's were most of the purchasing power comes from. You just can't make money if your target market it he poor.
And people without much time have to choose even more what to play, since time is a really hard constraint. It's an important thing one should keep in mind.
Now the microsoft comment is relevant if you consider D&D as a platform. If WoTC closes their platform it won't become popular and it might fail. I think the more companies that create products for D&D, be that Pen and Paper games or video games, the more the system grows.
D&D is not a 'platform', just as much as Halo or Dragon Age aren't a platform. This whole comment makes no sense.
Microsoft (rather, Windows in specific) needs other companies since Microsoft only gives you an extensively limited subset of tools to work with: The Operating System, Office and a few other tools (Visio, for example).
The two don't relate even remotely.
Yes they are very much related.
The d20 system is a good example of a platform. It's a set of rules that you can use to design,build, and play your own adventures. It's what the OGL is all about.
I think WoTC needs other companies in the same way that Microsoft needs other companies to build and create applications for their platform . In this case, WotC needs other companies to build adventures, campaign settings, and even video games for their platform (which is D&D). WoTC has its own IP's (just like Microsoft) that sits on top of their platform( IP's like Dragonlance, Ravenloft, etc. .
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 8:51AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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I would like to know one thing. It seems no one really asked or defined it.
What is "Old School"?
I, personally, hope no one considers Ver. 3 or above "Old School".
I think the original AD&D or D&D box sets would be "Old School".
I think there are rules that are old school like, Save or Die, Charm Person, 10d6 fireballs, wish, low hit points at first level, etc.
At the same time, 'old school' encourages a few different play styles. In some cases old school might be Ravenloft (which is more role playing / story based. In other cases it might be something like Castle Greyhawk - hack'n'slash.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 8:52AM
#39
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2012
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@lawolf
I disagree that they are unbalanceable. What is balanced or not balanced though is up for debate and I'm sure there are some 4e people who would say they can't be balanced. Lots of other people though would appreciate the design effort on their stuff.
I also disagree that the "grognards" are in the minority. Of course every issue is individual and some things are minority positions even among grognards. But if pre-4e are all grognards then I think the grognards are the majority. In theory at least. All of them aren't coming back regardless though so the practical group of potential players is up for debate.
For example, vancian magic is the majority in my opinion. Level drain though is a minority. Both are grognard things. I think lots of tables on how to adjudicate various situations would be useful in the DMG. No DM is required to look at every table or even use the tables. They would be useful though. For me an example is worth a thousand words oftentimes.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 8:54AM
#40
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This is going nowhere fast.
You again pull an unconnected example. Microsoft Windows is a platform, yes, becaucse it's an operating system - it is neither Photoshop, nor Final Cut, nor whatever software you can imagine. That's why it needs other companies to do that.
The d20 RPG System is also a platform, since it can be used very bare bones. You can do a lot with it.
What can you do with D&D PC Games? A very limited amount of things, leading to multiple game companies producing what essentially amounts to mostly the same thing. There is little relation between the d20 system, the windows operating system and D&D computer games, in terms of capabilities as a platform. The best you can do is create one solid game that is highly moddable and add not only modding tools, but also complete dungeon editor for easy creation of dungeons and the related quests/stories.
You compared systems to a specific kind of game (namely CRPG's).
If you have questions about 4th Edition - don't hesitate to ask me via PMs. Join the Community Monster Manual Group and help to collect a mass of monsters which will make your life as DM easier, and your life as Player pure hell! I am a cartographer. You can find some of my maps in my profile, free for non-commercial use. Also, if you happen to like maps or make them yourselves, join into the Cartographers Group!
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