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Dungeons & Dra.. D&D Next General D.. What are the pros and cons of classes? (Long read)
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 11:37PM #1
TomShambles
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 107
This is something that's been bugging me, and on more levels than one.


Recently there has been a lot of conversation about classes on this board, which is no surprise considering it has been the focus of a lot of dev talk. I see a lot of people talking about it, but I don't know if people are running off of false assumptions or not. Frankly, I'm not even sure if my beliefs are correct, so I thought of this topic so we can speak plainly and generally about the construct of "Class", and what it means for a game platform.

While this is relevant to D&D Next classes, it's not about the classes of D&D. It's about the concept in general, and how best to apply it. Try to keep the discussion (If any   within such framework.


Alright. The way I see it is this, plain and simple:


1. Classes are merely a construct of in-game mechanics.


----Simple enough, without rules to govern, classes don't exist. Neither does the game. 



2. Classes can only exist when restrictions are applied inside and outside the class. In fact, they are defined by restrictions.


----In other words, if every character has equal access to every in-game mechanic then there are, mechanically, no classes. The game would be classless by default.
 


3. Classes, therefore, are limited in "uniqueness" primarily by two governing factors:


    a. The number of in-game mechanics.


    b. The number of restrictions willing to be placed on said mechanics.


----What we can gather from this is the biggest thing to note: Classes are separated primarily by differences in mechanics, and that the larger the difference in mechanics, the greater the "Uniqueness" between classes.



4. Other minor factors can affect classes as well, though these are minor and typically informal in nature. If it's not a difference in mechanics, it is merely superficial.


----For instance, flavor text and miniatures. Neither of these has a stated affect on the rules, and it should be noted that actual restrictions (Paladin's Alignment) will be different in that they are "Required" to be followed within the RAW, modulations notwithstanding. These superficial differences even extend to sacred cows such as "Magic"--If a spell has the same effect, damage, range, properties, ect., as a warrior's attack, they are the same.
 


Hmmm....


With that, I'll propose another statement which is relevant to the topic at hand.


1. Variety is what makes D&D fun. I don't think anyone will argue that the human-generated unpredictability of D&D is what will make the game more interesting than any computer-generated video game. Thus, variety (IN GENERAL) is necessary to a very large degree in order to have fun.


By default, however, classes can only limit variety. This is logically constant, as any restrictions indicate a reduction of possible outcomes. That isn't to say, however, that all limitations are bad--Balance is also an important cornerstone in games, and in robust systems it can often only be achieved through restrictions. Therefore, one can not say that variety causes fun, but rather it correlates with fun.

Regardless, the most variable system will be classless. That undoubtably allows for the most open-ended gaming, but is it the most fun? What do classes contribute in exchange for a decrease in variety, which we can assume correlates closely to fun?


I can think of two outstanding things.

1. Balance, as previously mentioned. It not only prevents certain builds from vastly over-powering others, but ensures that most builds will be fairly operable.

2. Simplicity. Imagine trying to choose from every single power, feat, weapon, and skill in the Character builder, regardless of class, race, or most other restrictions. I wouldn't doubt it if the mathmetical outcomes measured near googleplex.

With that said, balance can be achieved still by placing restrictions on features through progression trees or prerequisites, which are both in ways similar constructs to "Class". Simplicity, however... Either you remove mechanics or add restrictions. At some point you'll achieve the same effect as "Class", only under a different name. Themes? Backgrounds? Once broken down, one can syllogistically identify them as one and the same. 

So does "Class" bring anything to the table other than simplicity? Is the concept nothing more than a balancing device or developer crutch? Am I wrong in my assumptions? So far off base I'm irredeemable? Poke away, please. I want to know what you guys think.


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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 12:05AM #2
CAV-CA
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2012
Posts: 1

I think Classes are an essential part of D&D; an "un-slayable" Sacred Cow.  

In D&D PCs are defined by their Class/Level, in contest to BRP where PCs are defined by Skill, or Savage Worlds where the definition is Classless/Level.  Making D&D a Classless system would change the very core of how PCs are defined, and thus the very essence of how the system plays and feels.

I don't believe that Classes are a guarantee of simplicity of choice, the more classes you add the harder the player's choice becomes.  As I see it by the end of 3rd Edition the shear amount of classes to choose from which in many cases only had very minor differences made character creation choices much harder than the choices in making a BRP or Savage Worlds PC.


I think the best way to add variety to classes is through additions like themes, backgrounds or kits.  They do bring issues with balance, which is a new but powerful Sacred Cow, to the table. 

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 12:12AM #3
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,016
Well at the most superficial level class is a stylistic choice the devs in the game use classes because that is a style of character generation associated with DnD and the devs do not feel that those asking for a classless system out weigh the people who like classes.

Of course there's the simplifying aspect since it gives a handy basis around which to focus a character so you can cut more stuff off the list when picking feats, skills, and what have you.

Furthermore classes come with expectations that can be fun to fufill or to turn on their heads a bit depending on how you wanna play at the time.

Classes provide a ready made identity you can assume to verying degrees based on your skill and comfort level that make it much easier for new players to 'get' the game. More than once i've seen a new recruit's eyes light up when they realize each of the dnd classes they are looking at corresponds to a class or character type from some fiction they are already familiar with. How many times have you heard someone tell a newbie that a cleric is just like a white mage?
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 6:53AM #4
Phoenix182
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2010
Posts: 1,260
community.wizards.com/phoenix182/blog/20...

I think class goes a bit deeper than you suggest, being inherent to the flavor/style of game. I also don't place any normative judgements on it, since it's entirely warranted on subjective beliefs and desired outcomes. For D&D it's absolutely inherent, and should be fully embraced and explored. For those not interested in class, play a different game designed that way. With the obvious addendum that you're free to play however you want, and if they can module it successfully more power to them and you...but I would never choose to play classless D&D...classless other games, yes, but not D&D.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 7:54AM #5
wrecan
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I think balance has another aspect.  Since a class is a package of mechanics that are, for the most part, inseparable, each mechanic need not be balanced against each other mechanic.  One class may have a few key mechanics that make it effective, while another may have a smattering of smaller flavorful mechanics with a few primary mechanics that are less mechanically optimal than the first class' key mechanics.  By packaging mechanics into classes, you can more easily contain the balance. 
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 8:17AM #6
TheMormegil
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 2,064

Apr 23, 2012 -- 7:54AM, wrecan wrote:

I think balance has another aspect.  Since a class is a package of mechanics that are, for the most part, inseparable, each mechanic need not be balanced against each other mechanic.  One class may have a few key mechanics that make it effective, while another may have a smattering of smaller flavorful mechanics with a few primary mechanics that are less mechanically optimal than the first class' key mechanics.  By packaging mechanics into classes, you can more easily contain the balance. 




^^ This, only I generally apply the concept to a different context. In a classless game, with no restriction on the "packages" of mechanics, the difference between versatility and power is a lot more difficult to balance correctly. This is something that plagues many aspects of the game, but if the classes are restricted to work in a certain way, then versatility can be balanced towards straight power without that much trouble. Just test it.

You could say that you can have a classless game where certain mechanics are packaged together, either by feat trees or similar constructs, but there is not a huge amount of difference between classes and feat trees, especially so with 3e multiclassing. Oh look I took another level in the Wizard feat tree, it gives me these new spells. 

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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.


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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 8:57AM #7
Mithrus
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 3,233
Another take on classes can be one of enabling options, instead of limiting them. Having a set of core rules for all characters, then have each class add options that allow them to "break the rules". I like this approach because it sets initial boundaries, which IMO allows for a much more balanced/controlled game. I personally don't mind if each class shares common mechanics or not, as long as each class can "feel" distinct. See the numerous threads on linear/quadratic class comparisons. I don't mind if the final class power curve is linear or quadratic, as long as all classes use the same curve.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 9:32AM #8
powerroleplayer
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 804
Also, don't underestimate the value of flavor.  Throw a newbie D&D player into a sea of options, and they'll be totally lost.  Do I want to cast divine spells or arcane ones?  Morning prep or spontaneous?  Sneak attack or mark?  There's no entry point into the world of D&D that they can wrap their head around.  Tell them what a fighter, a rogue, a cleric, and a wizard are and they'll have a core concept that they can understand and build a character out of.  I'm all for classless RPGs, at least when they have less content than WotC tends to put out, but D&D is the gateway RPG and it needs to have that entry point.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 9:56AM #9
Valien
Date Joined: Dec 3, 2008
Posts: 604
Both simplicity and flavor can be achieved, in a classless system, using the idea I like to call  "kits". IMO, the perfect RPG would be classless, but there would be several "packages" of features grouped temathically (just like they will be doing in 53 with Themes), where a player would be able to choose a "kit" in full, change a few feats and features, or simply ignore the kit and create the character manually. This way, you have all the pros of classes (simplicity, flavor, the capacity to "inspire" new players) without the restraints associated with the type of game that has classes.

In short: I wish Classes would operate like Themes in 5e (at least, like how they are saying that Themes will work).
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 10:08AM #10
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 8,016
Intruiging.
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Dungeons & Dra.. D&D Next General D.. What are the pros and cons of classes? (Long read)
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