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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:13PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 20, 2004
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Legends and LoreCleric Design Goalsby Mike MearlsThis week Legends & Lore focuses on the cleric and the design goals that D&D Next has for this class. Take a look at what Mike has to say about what might be your favorite class to play - or at least have in your party. Talk about this column here.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:34PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2008
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I really hope that Clerics won't be relegated to being the healbot and buffbot of the 3e and earlier era.
I don't mind healing, but the pre 4e edition cleric often felt like a walking wand of cure wounds. I remember back in the 2e and 3e days my priest's name was simply "medic." Sure, my character had a name, but I never heard it called.
4e did a lot of good for the cleric class, so I hope 5e takes a good look at how 4e handled the class. I also hope that in order to play a healer, you don't have to be tied to a deity if you don't want to be.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:36PM
#3
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From the article:
For instance, in a playtest I created an elf cleric of Apollo who was a skilled archer, woodsman, and scout. My character wore leather armor, carried a bow and a dagger, and spent the session sneaking ahead to spy on monsters, climbing a tree to escape an enraged ogre's reach, and hiding in a dark corner to ambush a gang of monsters drawn out by the rest of the party. You can easily create a cleric with a mace, healing spells, and plate armor, but you can also use the character customization options to sculpt your character. Keep in mind that I created this character before we had god-specific mechanics in the game, so this level of customization exists for all characters. I didn't gain access to it only by picking a domain or set of spheres for my character's god. By the same token, we aim to make sure that players can choose a set of options that match their preferred tactics. You can imagine having a set of healing spells that allow you to aid your allies while still attacking, while also having different spells that take your entire turn. As a player, you can decide to focus on serving as a healer, choose to straddle the middle ground between fighting monsters and helping your allies, or even opt to pick spells such as bless or lance of faith and then emphasize the warrior aspect of your character. At the end of the day, our design goals represent the primary goals for the archetypal expression of a character class. They're the starting point that we're aiming to bring to life while leaving room for players to tell their own stories and craft their own unique characters.
I am very encouraged by this, especially the bolded parts.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:38PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2008
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From the article:
For instance, in a playtest I created an elf cleric of Apollo who was a skilled archer, woodsman, and scout. My character wore leather armor, carried a bow and a dagger, and spent the session sneaking ahead to spy on monsters, climbing a tree to escape an enraged ogre's reach, and hiding in a dark corner to ambush a gang of monsters drawn out by the rest of the party. You can easily create a cleric with a mace, healing spells, and plate armor, but you can also use the character customization options to sculpt your character. Keep in mind that I created this character before we had god-specific mechanics in the game, so this level of customization exists for all characters. I didn't gain access to it only by picking a domain or set of spheres for my character's god. By the same token, we aim to make sure that players can choose a set of options that match their preferred tactics. You can imagine having a set of healing spells that allow you to aid your allies while still attacking, while also having different spells that take your entire turn. As a player, you can decide to focus on serving as a healer, choose to straddle the middle ground between fighting monsters and helping your allies, or even opt to pick spells such as bless or lance of faith and then emphasize the warrior aspect of your character. At the end of the day, our design goals represent the primary goals for the archetypal expression of a character class. They're the starting point that we're aiming to bring to life while leaving room for players to tell their own stories and craft their own unique characters.
I am very encouraged by this, especially the bolded parts.
Likewise! 
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:45PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 12, 2012
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In my group we presently have a cleric character that mainly acts as support. Some players enjoy playing such a character, so that should at least be an option.
But perhaps the real question is how they will handle healing surges. It is difficult to discuss healers before we know how the healing system will work.
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:52PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2008
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I wonder how they will limit the clerics choice of weapons. I personally like the idea that each god provides slightly different powers to his clerics.
In my group we resently have a cleric character that mainly acts as support. Some players enjoy playing such a character, so that should at least be an option.
But perhaps the real question is how they will handle healing surges. It is difficult to discuss healers before we know how the healing system will work.
While I think healing should be a main part of some cleric's abilities, I really hope that healing as a system is separate from the divine. In this I mean, it should be possible for a primal, psionic or arcane power source to have a healing character made from it. If they tie healing to the divine, then D&D will go right back to the days of 1e when priests solely existed to be a healbot.
The article does inspire hope, but as you pointed out, we don't know how healing is going to be handled, or what classes/builds gets to be a healer.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:17PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2004
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1. The Cleric Is a Healer
2. The Cleric Is a Divine Spellcaster
3. Divine Magic Is Subtle and Indirect
4. The Cleric Is an Armored Warrior
5. Clerics Reflect the Gods
I'd rather they spin their cleric's priorities on it's head: emphasize the Clerics connection to their god FIRST, and make healing be of last priority.
On a good note, I am rather pleased at Mearls' mentioning of Lance of Faith. Not the power itself, I thought it was rather boring. But rather, that it somewhat links Next to 4E.
@Mechapilot
I'm just wondering how well such a thing will scale in levels. I mean, such an endeavor was possible in 3E/4E, but past the first couple of levels it stopped being useful mostly in part of bad scaling and lack of relevant features.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:24PM
#8
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@Mechapilot
I'm just wondering how well such a thing will scale in levels. I mean, such an endeavor was possible in 3E/4E, but past the first couple of levels it stopped being useful mostly in part of bad scaling and lack of relevant features.
Well, all we have at the moment is the concept. I imagine that execution is probably a little ways off, and how the design is executed is what you're talking about there. If you're saying the concept is good but you hope they don't screw up the exection of it, then I basically agree with you.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 23, 2012 - 2:16AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2004
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1. The Cleric Is a Healer
2. The Cleric Is a Divine Spellcaster
3. Divine Magic Is Subtle and Indirect
4. The Cleric Is an Armored Warrior
5. Clerics Reflect the Gods
I'd rather they spin their cleric's priorities on it's head: emphasize the Clerics connection to their god FIRST, and make healing be of last priority.
On a good note, I am rather pleased at Mearls' mentioning of Lance of Faith. Not the power itself, I thought it was rather boring. But rather, that it somewhat links Next to 4E.
@Mechapilot
I'm just wondering how well such a thing will scale in levels. I mean, such an endeavor was possible in 3E/4E, but past the first couple of levels it stopped being useful mostly in part of bad scaling and lack of relevant features.
+1.
I'm even willing to seperate healing from the cleric altogether. But that just me.
I'm also wondering about the turn undead thing. How does that come into the picture?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 23, 2012 - 3:08AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2006
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From the article:
For instance, in a playtest I created an elf cleric of Apollo who was a skilled archer, woodsman, and scout. My character wore leather armor, carried a bow and a dagger, and spent the session sneaking ahead to spy on monsters, climbing a tree to escape an enraged ogre's reach, and hiding in a dark corner to ambush a gang of monsters drawn out by the rest of the party. You can easily create a cleric with a mace, healing spells, and plate armor, but you can also use the character customization options to sculpt your character. Keep in mind that I created this character before we had god-specific mechanics in the game, so this level of customization exists for all characters. I didn't gain access to it only by picking a domain or set of spheres for my character's god. By the same token, we aim to make sure that players can choose a set of options that match their preferred tactics. You can imagine having a set of healing spells that allow you to aid your allies while still attacking, while also having different spells that take your entire turn. As a player, you can decide to focus on serving as a healer, choose to straddle the middle ground between fighting monsters and helping your allies, or even opt to pick spells such as bless or lance of faith and then emphasize the warrior aspect of your character. At the end of the day, our design goals represent the primary goals for the archetypal expression of a character class. They're the starting point that we're aiming to bring to life while leaving room for players to tell their own stories and craft their own unique characters.
I am very encouraged by this, especially the bolded parts.
By contrast, I'm rather worried by it. Especially since it's stated earlier that a cleric of a god of shadows should be good at sneaking, even in heavy armour, implying that not only will the cleric be able to do these things, but they will be good at them. I really want to know what the Ranger is getting that makes them a better choice for the sneaky woodsy ambusher than this particular cleric, who has sneaky woodsy ambusher down and gets clerical spellcasting on top of that.
Also, Apollo as the God for sneaky woodsy types? His sister, perhaps, but it doesn't seem like his style.
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling,
And took their wages, and are dead.
Playing: Mongoose Traveller
GMing: Barbarians of Lemuria
Planning: Reclaiming Neverwinter, a 4e D&D campaign
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