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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 9:06PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2006
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There are some abilities that are just iconic or core to specific classes. Smite evil with paladins for example, or favored enemy for ranger. In 3rd edition, some classes got most of their core abilities early on, while others had to wait till later. In 5th edition I'd love to see things a little bit more front loaded. Give each class 2 to 4 core abilities right at first level. Sure, it would be fine to hand out improvements and other more specialized abilities throughout the level progression. However, I feel that each class should have at least a basic version of their core abilities at the get go. The upshot of this would be that you never have to wait a few levels before you can start functioning like a genuine member of your class. It would also give the classes a little bit more punch. Being a barbarian means you're something special, even if you're still a level 1 barbarian. Thoughts?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 9:19PM
#2
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If we do this, there should be a rule that says you only get those 'core abilities' if that class is your first overall level. So, say, if a fighter core ability is, I dunno, Weapon Specialization, you can only claim it if you start as a Fighter 1. Starting as anything else, then multiclassing into fighter doesn't get it for you.
Otherwise, it just amplifies the martial-class 'cherry picking' that plagued 3e, where you were better off being something like a Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Barbarian 2 than having six levels of any of those classes.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 9:21PM
#3
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I brought up a similar argument in the recent Druid thread. I hated having to wait several levels to use Wild Shape (and even then it's very limited) on a shapeshifter class in 3.x.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 9:56PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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Well maybe we shouldn't be thinking in terms of 3e multi-classing?
I mean what if we took inspiration from the track system from legend, and maybe re-tooled the feat or hybrid systems from 4e to not suck? or some fusion of the three?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 9:59PM
#5
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It's possible we might even see multiclass themes in DDN. They might have abilities from the other class instead of feats, or feats you can use to buy those abilities.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
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so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 10:02PM
#6
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It's possible a lot of classes could benefit from frontloading, but it seems like frontloading is downright impossible for vancian casters (and all other casters who gain access to certain level spells at higher levels).
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 11:34PM
#7
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You can front load abilities without front loading power.
Smite evil might be 1/day for +1d6 at level 1.
shape shifting might be limited to cows and deer at level 1.
favored enemy might only be +1 to hit.
Fighters might just get +1 damage to a specific weapon.
Ect...
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 11:43PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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HAve I mentioned how much I hate the +1 to specific weapons bit yet?
Anyway, frontloading can work, but only if we avoid cherry picking somehow.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 11:50PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I'd love frontloaded classes too. Say, all your class features at first level. Three or four major things that define how your character actually plays in combat. Of course, that also means you won't have 3e multiclassing... how about having an option to mix various classes and only take part of their abilities, with the option to take one or eventually two of the iconic ones with a feat? 
Are you interested in an online 4E game on Sunday? Contact me with a PM! Spoiler:
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Ideas for 5ESpoiler:
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1 year ago ::
Apr 21, 2012 - 11:55PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2004
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For those of us who suck at being subtle:
Retooling 4e multi-classing to not suck.
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