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Switch to Forum Live View Let's front load class abilities
1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 2:42PM #21
Pyromantic
Date Joined: Jan 8, 2007
Posts: 321
Saying that you want all of the features of a class to be available through multiclassing is not the same as saying you want an overpowered character.  You might have to pick and choose between certain features or have delayed access.  I agree that having as much of what defines a class available in some fashion through multiclassing creates a more robust and interesting system.

As for front-loading, I'd prefer the idea that many features are spread through the first few levels, but the game's default assumption is that you will start at level 3 or so.  That way you can create legimately multiclassed characters from the beginning.

I also disagree that spellcasters cannot be frontloaded by definition; it's simply a matter of degrees.  Casters can have more spells available at low levels than in some previous editions and simply scale slower through levelling.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 2:47PM #22
Garthanos
Date Joined: Jan 15, 2009
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Apr 21, 2012 -- 11:55PM, rampant wrote:

For those of us who suck at being subtle:

Retooling 4e multi-classing to not suck.





What you dont like **** footing it?

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 3:37PM #23
Kaldric
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2002
Posts: 2,618
I'm on board in terms of getting the classes to feel like they are unique right off the bat. Until we know more about multi-classing, we really can't say much, though.

I can, off the top of my head, think of 9 different ways D&D has handled multiclassing, each with their pro and con arguments. I don't really see why they don't publish rules that emulate all of these methods. Start with a couple of the more popular styles for the first book, and put in more as space allows later on.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 7:02PM #24
TomShambles
Date Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 107
You can't throw in 9 different variant rules for multi-classing because of how incredibly confusing and abusable it is. Remember, 5e doesn't just need to appeal to hardcore CharOp'ers who come on this forum and dig through formulas to powergame their PCs. It also needs to appeal to casual and new fans, and not propogate the myth that D&D is an overly-complex system you have to dump all your free time into to enjoy.

I'm as much a lover of variety and modules as everyone here, but by the way the folks here are building the game in their head, there will be a such a steep learning curve with all of these available options we'll turn away more people than we gain.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 7:07PM #25
Kingreaper
Date Joined: Jun 3, 2010
Posts: 1,608

Apr 22, 2012 -- 8:51AM, Thalion94518 wrote:

The way you get around the cherry picking is by having two advancement tracks per class.

The default track is if you start your career at level 1 and can be frontloaded like the OP suggests.

The multiclass track is used if you're using 3e multiclassing and the abilities that were frontloaded in the default track are now spread out.

All it would require is an additional column on the class advancement schedule.



At which point what you've actually done is made it so that the default starting level is the Xth level, where X is the number of levels it takes to get all the "frontloaded" features.

It's a near perfect solution, but I don't think your way of presenting it is the best one. 

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 8:00PM #26
chaosfang
Date Joined: May 1, 2009
Posts: 4,881
Frontloading could work, as long as there are restrictions on the multiclassing system.  Some prefer a more organic approach to their character gaining levels though -- see how D&D 4E's Essentials classes generally gained new class features as their levels increased -- and I suppose that could also help limit the class-dipping that could be done.

Taking ideas from Star Wars: Saga Edition (D&D 4E's predecessor, which is effectively a 3.5/4 hybrid) and 4E in general, here's how I'd envision the whole thing...

1. When creating a character, you must first determine your stats.  You could
-> roll 4d6 (drop lowest) and allot the results to each stat
-> use an array and allot them to your stats
-> use a point-buy system, alloting your stats

2. After determining your stats, choose your race.  Race will give you a
-> minor boost to one or two stats
-> racial ability (for multiple racial abilities, e.g. genasi, choose one)
[ I know they announced the re-introduction of racial penalties, but I'd rather not return to that since it's outright redundant. The strongest halfling can never be as strong as the strongest human in 4E, why add a penalty to the halfling's strength on top of the inability to boost their strength in the first place?  Because of lore, that is mutable anyway? ]

3. After determining your race, choose your class.  Class will give you
-> generic benefits, with special multiclassing restrictions at level 1, like
** if level 1 normally gives you triple the maxHP of your normal class (e.g. Fighter d10 = 30 HP at level 1), multiclassing to a different class does not give you that HP (Wizard 1 [18 HP] MC Fighter only gets you 18 + 1d10 HP, not 18+30 = 48 HP)
** if level 1 has a whole slew of features, multiclassing to a different class lets you gain only a specific set (or one of a specific set of class features, if not a weaker version of class features)
-> these generic benefits apply regardless of build, background or theme (see below).  So a level 3 Rogue with the Brutal Scoundrel build who takes 5 levels of Fighter gains the same benefits as any other level 5 Fighter.

4. After determining your class, choose your build.  Build gives you
-> specific benefits, similar to that of a "role" of sorts.  These are special class features that cannot be acquired via multiclassing.
-> these progress independent of your class, as this is based on your character level.  This means that the abilities acquired here would have to be compatible with other classes whenever possible.

5. After determining your build, choose your theme.  Theme gives you
-> skills or subskills that help you be better at certain instances.
-> when leveling, you can either improve existing skills/subskills, or acquire new skills as you go along.

6. After determining your theme, choose your background.  Background gives you a minor bonus, typically a skill training or bonus that normally isn't granted by your theme, or a language that your race would normally not be able to grant you, or what not.

It's a lot more complicated at first glance, but given the modularity of the whole thing, you can basically stick to step 1 and be done with your character, or you can progress to step 2 and 3, and stop there.  Or, you can get all of them except for #4, or you can ignore #5 completely.

Whenever you level up, you'd acquire the following...
1. Class level.  You can choose to gain a new level in your own class (which would have new class features) or you can choose to take a different class.
2. Build feature.  At certain character levels you gain the benefit of your build.  This would show that no matter how much you dedicate yourself to a new field, there will always be some way your original class would influence you (again this can be discarded by those who feel that it breaks their sense of versimilitude).
3. Skill points.  Unlike in previous editions, skill progression would be very slow, and basically would amount to as follows:
-> 0 (untrained).  Can do trivial tasks effortlessly, can handle tasks that apprentices can do with some capability (depending on natural aptitude).  Cannot do tasks that require training.
-> 1 (apprentice). Can do apprentice tasks automatically, although anything that requires high amount of skill would be anywhere from challenging to impossible (cannot perform Master tasks, journeyman moderate DC, expert difficult DC).
-> 2 (journeyman).  Journeyman tasks are easy DC, expert tasks are moderate DC, master tasks are difficult DC, Grandmaster tasks are impossible.  Gain 1 specialization [sub-skill] feature.
-> 3 (expert). Auto-succeed journeyman tasks, expert tasks are easy DC, master tasks are difficult DC, grandmaster tasks are impossible.  Either gain an additional specialization, or enhance existing specialization.
-> 4 (master). Auto-succeed expert tasks, master tasks are moderate DC, grandmaster tasks are difficult DC.  Either gain an additional specialization, or enhance existing specialization.
-> 5 (grandmaster).  Auto-succeed expert tasks, master tasks are easy DC, grandmaster tasks are moderate DC.  Either gain two additional specializations, or enhance two existing specializations.

Specializations would be special abilities within skills that in some ways can be considered as powers.  For example, a Thievery journeyman can acquire the Locksmith specialization that allows him greater proficiency in creating and unlocking locks, while an Athletics expert could have Climbing specialization that allows him better climbing abilities, including the ability to help others climb better when he's the first among them.  An Arcana expert could be specialized in Improvised Spellcasting or Spellcrafting, or what not.

To recap, this is how I'd like it to happen:
1. Class levels provide HP, base features and other stuff that can be acquired via multiclassing
2. Multiclassing would be restricted to minimize the need for "class dipping"
3. Builds would further make a character unique, by giving him what you could consider as "character features based off his original class"
4. Themes would further make a character unique, by allowing him skill sets that are most compatible with character concept, instead of class concept
5. Background would effectively seal the deal, by allowing a minor bonus based off the character's history.

I suppose you could translate "builds" in this scenario as 4E's "themes", whereas the idea for multiclassing and single classes would be more reflective of 3.5 and SW:SE  
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Oct 3, 2009 -- 12:36AM, MrCelsius wrote:


If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.



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This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.

What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development)

Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with

The Best Answer to "Why 4E?"

Fun vs. Engaging
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 8:04PM #27
Kaldric
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2002
Posts: 2,618

Apr 22, 2012 -- 7:02PM, TomShambles wrote:

You can't throw in 9 different variant rules for multi-classing because of how incredibly confusing and abusable it is. Remember, 5e doesn't just need to appeal to hardcore CharOp'ers who come on this forum and dig through formulas to powergame their PCs. It also needs to appeal to casual and new fans, and not propogate the myth that D&D is an overly-complex system you have to dump all your free time into to enjoy. I'm as much a lover of variety and modules as everyone here, but by the way the folks here are building the game in their head, there will be a such a steep learning curve with all of these available options we'll turn away more people than we gain.




I'd more had in mind the idea that you either excluded multiclassing entirely, (which I'm certain the core, basic rule system will do - it's an entirely added-on feature) or you picked one of the available options, each with a paragraph delivering an evaluation of what it will likely do to your game. Why not have a chapter devoted to the various multiclassing systems, ranked in order of their complexity, and just let people pick the one they want to use?

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 8:12PM #28
GhostStepper
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2005
Posts: 2,472
They should just use d20 Legend's track system. Its far superior to either 3e or 4e's way of doing multiclass. 
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 8:21PM #29
Phawksin
Date Joined: Mar 2, 2012
Posts: 87
This thread quickly became about Multiclassing Mechanics because that is likely the core problem with front-loaded classes. Here is an example of how multiclassing is likely to work in a Role Playing Heavy game:

Wizard is in combat, he did not prepare a great number of offensive spells because he did not expect to be in combat. During that combat he gets knocked prone, and as the orc advances on him he casts Shocking Grasp and reaches to his opponent... who kicks the shocking hand, stomping it and shattering the bones. Crying out in pain the Wizard reaches to his left, clutching onto a fallen warhammer. As the orc swings an axe up for a skull-crushing blow the Wizard grabs the warhammer, swings it wildly and as luck would have it, catches the orc in the leg knocking it down. After the combat is over this wizard, and intellegent fellow, realizes that a simple solution might benifit him more often, and he spends the next few weeks training with the party's fighter, learning the ways of some weapons and basic melee fighting skills. 

This is an example that is not about 'most powerful character OMG!!' but a simple roleplay situation. A front-loaded class system could make this choice quite powerful (see all other threads about melee casters) or it could (Through a system that becomes overly complex with inflated rules, XP cost, traded class features, ect), become so taxed that the character becomes a useles member of the party.

Bottom Line: Classes should have SOME iconic abilities at first level (Druids and shapeshifting) and Multiclassing should be SIMPLE and discourage class-stacking while staying simple. That may go into the realm of what should be a new thread, but it seems to be the issue at hand. 
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 22, 2012 - 8:22PM #30
chaosfang
Date Joined: May 1, 2009
Posts: 4,881

Apr 22, 2012 -- 8:04PM, Kaldric wrote:

Apr 22, 2012 -- 7:02PM, TomShambles wrote:

You can't throw in 9 different variant rules for multi-classing because of how incredibly confusing and abusable it is. Remember, 5e doesn't just need to appeal to hardcore CharOp'ers who come on this forum and dig through formulas to powergame their PCs. It also needs to appeal to casual and new fans, and not propogate the myth that D&D is an overly-complex system you have to dump all your free time into to enjoy. I'm as much a lover of variety and modules as everyone here, but by the way the folks here are building the game in their head, there will be a such a steep learning curve with all of these available options we'll turn away more people than we gain.




I'd more had in mind the idea that you either excluded multiclassing entirely, (which I'm certain the core, basic rule system will do - it's an entirely added-on feature) or you picked one of the available options, each with a paragraph delivering an evaluation of what it will likely do to your game. Why not have a chapter devoted to the various multiclassing systems, ranked in order of their complexity, and just let people pick the one they want to use?



I dunno... I mean it's obvious that 4E never had the same consideration for multiclassing as in 3.XE -- even though it had the rules in the original PHB, it was really, REALLY difficult to exploit in any way, as class and character were effectively united in 4E -- and you have a whole slew of people complaining about how weak 4E's multiclassing system is.

I'd rather that, just like in 3E and SW:SE, multiclassing is seriously taken into consideration, so that players have the option to multiclass and have fun with it, but at the same time it's done in such a way that it's difficult to "game the system", so to speak.

All in all, I'd like that the developers minimize the need for DMs to houserule or tweak his or her campaign just to make a system fun, by ensuring that the players have a system that has near-infinite possible combinations, and virtually all of them more or less equally contributive to any given scenario (so that people aren't obligated to have the Bard being the Face all the time, or the Rogue being the Skill Monkey all the time, or what not).  I mean, computers are basically comprised of plastics, metals, wiring, transistors and what not, all utilizing a system that in theory is no more complicated than a light switch [1 - on, 0 - off], and yet utilizing those basic components in such a way that we now have iPads, laptops, computers, routers, and the Internet.  And the whole thing just keeps on getting better, yet we're still utilizing a bunch of 0s and 1s.  I want a game system that, even if it isn't perfect, is simple enough in its execution, yet is able to portray infinite possibilities with little need for me to open it up and tinkering with it. 

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You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.

You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.

D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium


Oct 3, 2009 -- 12:36AM, MrCelsius wrote:


If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.



I Don't Always Play Strikers...But When I Do, I Prefer Vampire
Stay Thirsty, My Friends


This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.

What I hope to be my most useful contributions to the D&D Community: DM Idea: Collaborative Mapping, Classless 4E (homebrew system, that hopefully helps in D&D Next development), Gamma World 7E random character generator (by yours truly), and the Concept of Perfect Imbalance (for D&D Next and other TRPGs in development)

Pre-3E D&D should be recognized for what they were: simulation wargames where people could tell stories with

The Best Answer to "Why 4E?"

Fun vs. Engaging
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