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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 7:33PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
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I think the trend in D&D of nothing bad evar is really sad. I hate that attitude with a passion hotter than the sun.
I'm right there with you, brother.
Playtest or get off the playtest boards.
---
I want justice for the voice that can't be heard
Vindication for every suffering and hurt
Let retribution hold dominion over earth
--Nemesis, VNV Nation
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 7:58PM
#32
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I think there very much are people who do not ever want anything lastingly bad to happen to a character. I thought that's what Emerikol was saying.
Personally, I'm fine with that. It's not the way I play, but they don't have to play in my games, I don't have to play in theirs.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 8:12PM
#33
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Age much like hair color, eye color, skin color, height, and weight should be pure fluff. If you want your character to be a preteen or an old geezer it should not matter to your stats in any way.
So bring on the old and the real young all about how you describe it.
This.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 8:48PM
#34
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The idea of topic was 'Should ageing actually be a negative? And if so could we use it as a balancing factor?' So sure that wizard is still young now but he is only 3 years away from an age penalty, meanwhile that fighter has at least 10 years before he has to worry about growing old. So when that wizard has reach level 15 and has a lot of spells he also has some age penelties that help balance him out.
You shouldn't require an outside source (aging penalites, magic items, etc.) to balance out classes. That's just sloppy design, not that age penalties ever really balanced anything in the past anyway.
And all that is setting aside the incredible difficulty of simulating the negative effects of aging because people age differently. Does a character with a good diet and a lot of exercise get to stave off the effects of aging for a few years? Does the barbarian with a diet of beer and red meat have to make heart attack checks every year after 30?
People rightly want different amounts of realism in their games. That's why aging works as a module. Let those who have it want it. Those who don't can leave it be.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 8:48PM
#35
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I think age should matter in my games. Here's why. Much like an ability score, it's a measure of the physical nature of the character. There are also campaign styles (which I like) that rely on a persistent game world with a continuously updated calendar. Characters retire and inhabit strongholds that become 'safe' adventuring bases. The higher-level characters retired there are available to play when monsters occasionally attack the stronghold, or to fight a high-level threat that comes into the world, while the players who originally played them spend time on other characters elsewhere in the world. Time passes even when the characters aren't being played - the world moves on whether they're on stage or not.
Age rolls, to see if they slip into the next age category, bring these retired characters back into the spotlight every once in a while, giving players the opportunity to decide whether to bring them out for a new adventure, maybe go looking for a potion of longevity, if they're willing to take the risk. Age that has bite also adds a sense of urgency - if you want that character to be of significant use, you need to use him before he gets too old.
Of course, if I want to run such a campaign, I need to do something about those pesky demi-humans, with their really long lives. If they live for a thousand years, they will just eventually end up level 300 or whatever. Unless they have... (dare I say it?) level limits. *gasp*
I'd actually prefer not to use level limits. In the campaign I'm planning, if 5e doesn't work out, I'm going to simply roll ages for all the characters as if they're human. The longer-lived ones, when they reach the age of death, will simply go away. Elves will head into the West, Dwarves will retire deep under the Mountain, Halflings will die of massive coronaries, falling face first into a pudding.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:26PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2008
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I didn't particularly care for the aging rules from previous editions and was happy there were none in 4E. Age should be pure fluff, nothing more.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:38PM
#37
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@Master Drow: Unfortunately, I like you, enjoy the sense of
Can I safely assume you meant to say "Unfortunately I, like you, enjoy the sense of" that comma's placement makes all the difference. 
I was actually thinking of just making age categories and then suggesting in the fluff text about what age each race reaches those catagories. So the catagories could be Baby, Child, Juvenile, Adult, Middle age, Old, Ancient, Dead, Undead. And then in the elves descriptive text it might say, "Most elves are considered to be Children until the age of 25, and most are considered Juvenile's until well into their 70's." This way you can give some basic guidelines without resitricting the DM/Players to a specific age. So no more, "Hey you turned 36 today, now your strength dropped a point!"
I happen to like the idea of gaining flaws as you get older. Or something like what Wrecan made. So getting older is not just a stat or skill modifier it actually effects your character in some meaningful and fun/interesting way. Like say you reach the Ancient age category, you roll, or pick, or are given by the DM (Dm's choice on which) a flaw. You might get "Senile" where you have a 10% chance to forget something that happened more than 1 minute ago. I could see a lot of fun roleplaying with that. (Imagine a scout with senile, he would just forget what he was doing and instead just wander off into the forest looking for something entirely different.)
Master Drow,
You may safely assume, and in fact, I would prefer it.  When I popped back on the thread and read what I wrote, I immediately said oops. 
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:59PM
#38
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And all that is setting aside the incredible difficulty of simulating the negative effects of aging because people age differently. Does a character with a good diet and a lot of exercise get to stave off the effects of aging for a few years? Does the barbarian with a diet of beer and red meat have to make heart attack checks every year after 30?
That is why I like the flaws idea. If you have a character that drinks himself to sleep every night after 20 years he might develop liver desiease. The idea with flaws is that there are a bunch for the DM to choose from so he can assign the one that he thinks is apporpriate to the character. If he can't decide on one the player could always roll randomly.
Also by giving age catagories instead exact age dates the DM can adjust the when the character would go up an age catagory.
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. Have Played/Run
Show
D&D 1st ed
D&D 3.5 ed
D&D 4th ed
Shadowrun
Star Wars SAGA
Cyberpunk
Interlock Unlimited
Run.Net
I know my games, don't try to argue about them. Alignment Explained
Show
This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below.
Their are two types of people
Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good"
Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good.
The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits.
Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil.
Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done.
Now that is cleared up here is a simple test.
What is the alignment of...
A Police officer:
The average Citizen:
A Vigilante:
The answer is simple.
The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society.
The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people.
The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals.
That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily.
The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral.
The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil.
It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good.
Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:02PM
#39
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And all that is setting aside the incredible difficulty of simulating the negative effects of aging because people age differently. Does a character with a good diet and a lot of exercise get to stave off the effects of aging for a few years? Does the barbarian with a diet of beer and red meat have to make heart attack checks every year after 30?
That is why I like the flaws idea. If you have a character that drinks himself to sleep every night after 20 years he might develop liver desiease. The idea with flaws is that there are a bunch for the DM to choose from so he can assign the one that he thinks is apporpriate to the character. If he can't decide on one the player could always roll randomly.
I don't like the DM telling me "This is the list of things that are wrong with your character." It is my opinion that any flaw system should make it up to the players to choose them (and should be entirely optional as well); they are the ones who will have to RP them, afterall.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:05PM
#40
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First off the DM could choose or the player could roll randomly.
And we both know that if we allow players to choose they will be all about what they can use and abuse not actually the possibility of some negative. Which is the whole purpose here.
Im sorry but ADEU is a French word for goodbye, not a combat system. You say, "Encounter Power" and I stop listening to you. Have Played/Run
Show
D&D 1st ed
D&D 3.5 ed
D&D 4th ed
Shadowrun
Star Wars SAGA
Cyberpunk
Interlock Unlimited
Run.Net
I know my games, don't try to argue about them. Alignment Explained
Show
This is a very simple problem and I will outline it below.
Their are two types of people
Type 1: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "I am lawful good thus I must play lawful good"
Type 2: a lot of people (not all, but a lot) who play see alignment as "My previous actions have made people and the gods view me as lawful good.
The difference is subtle but it is the source of the misunderstanding. Alignment does not dictate how you play your character. All it does is tell you, the player, how the rest of the world views you, and your previous actions. Any future actions will be judged by their own merits.
Say you're a baby eating pyromaniac. You are most likely chaotic evil. But one day you decide, "Hey all I really need is love." So you get a wife, have a kid, and get a kitten named Mr. Snook'ems. You become a member of the PTA and help build houses for the homeless. You are no longer chaotic evil. And just because you were once chaotic evil it does not mean that you have to stay chaotic evil.
Alignment never dictates what you can do, it only says what you have done.
Now that is cleared up here is a simple test.
What is the alignment of...
A Police officer:
The average Citizen:
A Vigilante:
The answer is simple.
The Police officer is lawful good. He uses the laws of the country and city to arrest people and make them pay their debt to society.
The Citizen is Neutral good. He wants to live is a place that is Good and follows moral and ethical principle, but he sometimes finds the laws impedes him, and he wonders why we spend so much on poor people.
The Vigilante is Chaotic Good. He wants to uphold the morals and ethics of society but finds that the bad guys often slip through the cracks in the law. He takes it upon himself to protect the people from these criminals.
That is the basic breakdown of the good alignment axis. What needs to be remembered is that any one of these people can change alignments, easily.
The Police officer could be bought off by a local gang, and suddenly he drops to lawful neutral.
The average citizen might find that his neighbors dog is annoying, barking at night and keeping him up. So he poisons its food, now he is no longer good, he is stepping towards true neutral. Maybe the citizen really goes crazy also kills the neighbor, hello neutral evil.
It is possible that the Vigilante realizes that the cops are actually doing a pretty good job and decides to become an officer himself, leaving his masked crime fighting days behind him. Now he is Lawful good.
Your alignment is not carved in stone, it is malleable and will change to reflect your actions.
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