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Switch to Forum Live View How should the garrote be implemented?
1 year ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 8:57PM #1
bajatmerc
Date Joined: Mar 3, 2010
Posts: 590

Garrotes are designed to be a quiet and easy method to kill on the RP side. Yet mechanically it has not been easy or quiet.

I would like to see all classes get a bonus to attacks from stealth, particularly while using a Garrote. 
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Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 9:01PM #2
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,557
Skill challenge.  Succeed, you snuck up and whacked/choked/whatevered the guard.  Fail, you tipped your hand and alerted him, or something else went wrong.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 9:03PM #3
MechaPilot
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2007
Posts: 10,065

Apr 19, 2012 -- 9:01PM, Salla wrote:

Skill challenge.  Succeed, you snuck up and whacked/choked/whatevered the guard.  Fail, you tipped your hand and alerted him, or something else went wrong.



I never considered that one before, but that seems a good way to handle it.

Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad Show

Mar 4, 2012 -- 5:04PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Warrant wrote:

so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.


Really?  So it goes something like this?

Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well."  Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh.  Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."


taking an argument too far Show

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:27PM, Frostball wrote:

So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion?  Here's a scenario.  The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land.  They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges.  Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.

Part 1:  I didn't describe any of the hits.  What does he see?

Part 2:  Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up.  What does he see?



Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 5:37AM #4
powerroleplayer
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2009
Posts: 805
I kind of liked the way the essassin did it: a grab that damages, and the target cannot talk while grabbed.  If you can keep him grabbed until he dies, you're good.  If not, he gets to call for help (or if he spots you before you grab him).  Of course, it's ridiculous that only essassins of the red scales can do this, this should be how garrottes work all the time in all situations with all characters.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 10:47AM #5
TheMormegil
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 2,064
Just reflavor a grapple check. Or give a circumstantial +2 bonus to damage rolls in a grapple. No need for complex rules.
Are you interested in an online 4E game on Sunday? Contact me with a PM!

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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept.


Ideas for 5E
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:18PM #6
WhiteHarness
Date Joined: Oct 4, 2004
Posts: 695
People in heavy armour should be utterly immune to garrotes.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:35PM #7
AbdulAlhazred
Date Joined: Jan 9, 2009
Posts: 10,302
It is worth considering what is going on here. Basically the idea is an attacker gets to essentially kill a target with a single attack. Now, assuming you're a decently competent combatant ANY attack you make in combat is potentially lethal. Why don't most attacks kill? Clearly because the enemy is also skilled/lucky/tough/magical/etc to avoid the damage, survive it, etc. Is there a reason this needs to be different just because the weapon is a garrote? Realistically if you get that wire around the victim's throat they're dead. Unconsciousness will occur in from 7 to 20 seconds. This isn't much different than the almost instant death that would result from being bashed in the head with an axe or run through with a sword.

So, logically we have to invoke the same level of abstraction as with other types of attacks. If the victim isn't killed then they clearly weren't garrotted. The target got a hand on the loop, turned around, broke the attacker's grip on the garrote, or just plain avoided it. Clearly, since they were hit, they expended some 'plot armor' (hit points) in doing so, but again no more or less than with any other weapon attack. There's no reason to assume the target is being held by the ligature, and in fact if they were they'd be dead already by the end of one round (at least unconscious).

Thus I would argue that the garrote doesn't need any special rules at all. It works like any other weapon. If you gank a minion with it, they're just dead. A skilled rogue attacking with surprise may be able to kill off standard monsters too. Any monster beyond that clearly isn't enough of a mook to be dispatched this way, or else will only succumb after a long struggle (IE multiple attacks until you finally get the ligature in place).

I agree on the SC for assassination type operations. It works fine as these aren't really combat situations. In that case the garrote's weapon mechanics are irrelevant, though its form and such may well be relevant from an RP perspective (IE you can keep the thing in your pocket and it is going to be hard for someone to find on you, and silent).
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 6:10AM #8
bajatmerc
Date Joined: Mar 3, 2010
Posts: 590

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:18PM, WhiteHarness wrote:

People in heavy armour should be utterly immune to garrotes.



I agree

I also liked that idea to use a skill check. I am going to see what my players think about a house rule on garrotes.

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Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 6:17AM #9
wrecan
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I'm not crazy about skill checks to replace combat.  It means combat has two different subsytems for resolution and that seems a bit overcomplicated.  Also, how do I have a NPC attack PCs with a garrotte? 

If we're going to hyperrealism, then a garrotte is a two-handed weapon that inflicts slashing damage, that can only be used in the surprise round, and only against medium or smaller enemies wearing armor/clothing that exposes their necks.  It allows you to enter a gapple/grab and do choking damage.  While choking, the victim can struggle, but not speak.  If the victim is reduced to 0 before breaking the grab/grapple, then the victim is choked out.  If the victim escapes the grab/grapple, then combat resumes and the person can speak.  The victim may also try something like making noise with his hands and feet, if there's someone else close by.  I'd also allow a thief/rogue to use his sneak attack/backstab on the victim.

Under these rules, a garrotte is a good weapon in the hands of a sneak, particularly one optimized for grabbing/grappling, and can kill low-level creatures pretty quickly, but is unlikely to work on higher level folks.  It doesn't sound too unbalanced.  It's only nominally better than a dagger in the back.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 23, 2012 - 6:31AM #10
bajatmerc
Date Joined: Mar 3, 2010
Posts: 590
It would make sense you can't garrote someone in combat, it'd be hard to do it anyhow without getting stabbed.

npcs vs pcs -  I am guessing save throws in a series along with grapple escapes? 
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Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.
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