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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 8:52AM
#531
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I personally think there can be some little niche things that the fighter gets that takes effect outside of combat but comes at no cost to combat effectiveness. However it should almost always be directed towards fighting in some way. Things like getting a bonus to social interaction checks(Cha check while talking to someone) when the conversation taking place has something to do with fighting.
Things like:
That's fine, so long as the wizard's out of combat ability is limited to magic missiling something or fireballing it.
So using spells. Good call. Thats what the Wizard is supposed to do. It might not always be Magic Missle or Fireball but sometimes it just might be.
Sorry, damage only. After all, the fighter only gets to fight. The wizard should only get to deal damage as well. MAYBE there can be a module about using fireball out of combat.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 8:59AM
#532
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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I personally think there can be some little niche things that the fighter gets that takes effect outside of combat but comes at no cost to combat effectiveness. However it should almost always be directed towards fighting in some way. Things like getting a bonus to social interaction checks(Cha check while talking to someone) when the conversation taking place has something to do with fighting.
Things like:
That's fine, so long as the wizard's out of combat ability is limited to magic missiling something or fireballing it.
So using spells. Good call. Thats what the Wizard is supposed to do. It might not always be Magic Missle or Fireball but sometimes it just might be.
Sorry, damage only. After all, the fighter only gets to fight. The wizard should only get to deal damage as well. MAYBE there can be a module about using fireball out of combat.
So because I suggested a completely non weapon swinging option that is useful out of combat but still related to the core concept of the class you say people can only ever do damage.
Also considering my suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with the fighter fighting and instead has to do with the fighter talking to people about the things he knows your statement makes 0 sense.
Moderated by
ORC_Sinister
on Apr 26, 2012 - 09:56AM
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 9:13AM
#533
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I personally think there can be some little niche things that the fighter gets that takes effect outside of combat but comes at no cost to combat effectiveness. However it should almost always be directed towards fighting in some way. Things like getting a bonus to social interaction checks(Cha check while talking to someone) when the conversation taking place has something to do with fighting.
Things like:
That's fine, so long as the wizard's out of combat ability is limited to magic missiling something or fireballing it.
So using spells. Good call. Thats what the Wizard is supposed to do. It might not always be Magic Missle or Fireball but sometimes it just might be.
Sorry, damage only. After all, the fighter only gets to fight. The wizard should only get to deal damage as well. MAYBE there can be a module about using fireball out of combat.
So because I suggested a completely non weapon swinging option that is useful out of combat but still related to the core concept of the class you say people can only ever do damage. You sure a gnome is the creature you should have as your avatar. You sure it isn't supposed to be something a bit bigger, and greener, and susceptible to fire and acid.
Seriously your posts hardly ever add anything useful to a conversation. I can't even have an intelligent discourse based upon your interaction here.
Also considering my suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with the fighter fighting and instead has to do with the fighter talking to people about the things he knows your statement makes 0 sense.
NO, my comment is just to show how frankly stupid the notion is that the fighter cant have any meaningful contribution that doesnt relate to fighting. But because magic gets to do everything, as awesome as we want it to, the wizard gets to contribute in all scenarios. Really? Is magic just THAT friggin easy to learn?
Apparently in D&D land, being a fighter requires a 10 year program and Doctorate of Fighting. And all that lets you know how to swing a sword and to talk to people about swords. But the Wal-mart greeter can bend the laws of physics 50 zillion different ways, and change his superpowers every day....
Because apparently the fighter's study is so incredibly intensive he cant have non-combat utility not related to fighting.
The only way you can have non-combat parity between the fighter and the wizard is either greatly limiting the wizard down to the fighters level of sucking (damage only), or letting the fighter (all non casters really) have plot based contrivances that can largely accomplish the same thing as magic. Take your pick.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 9:57AM
#534
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2005
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 10:19AM
#535
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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I personally think there can be some little niche things that the fighter gets that takes effect outside of combat but comes at no cost to combat effectiveness. However it should almost always be directed towards fighting in some way. Things like getting a bonus to social interaction checks(Cha check while talking to someone) when the conversation taking place has something to do with fighting.
Things like:
That's fine, so long as the wizard's out of combat ability is limited to magic missiling something or fireballing it.
So using spells. Good call. Thats what the Wizard is supposed to do. It might not always be Magic Missle or Fireball but sometimes it just might be.
Sorry, damage only. After all, the fighter only gets to fight. The wizard should only get to deal damage as well. MAYBE there can be a module about using fireball out of combat.
So because I suggested a completely non weapon swinging option that is useful out of combat but still related to the core concept of the class you say people can only ever do damage. You sure a gnome is the creature you should have as your avatar. You sure it isn't supposed to be something a bit bigger, and greener, and susceptible to fire and acid.
Seriously your posts hardly ever add anything useful to a conversation. I can't even have an intelligent discourse based upon your interaction here.
Also considering my suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with the fighter fighting and instead has to do with the fighter talking to people about the things he knows your statement makes 0 sense.
NO, my comment is just to show how frankly stupid the notion is that the fighter cant have any meaningful contribution that doesnt relate to fighting. But because magic gets to do everything, as awesome as we want it to, the wizard gets to contribute in all scenarios. Really? Is magic just THAT friggin easy to learn?
Apparently in D&D land, being a fighter requires a 10 year program and Doctorate of Fighting. And all that lets you know how to swing a sword and to talk to people about swords. But the Wal-mart greeter can bend the laws of physics 50 zillion different ways, and change his superpowers every day....
Because apparently the fighter's study is so incredibly intensive he cant have non-combat utility not related to fighting.
The only way you can have non-combat parity between the fighter and the wizard is either greatly limiting the wizard down to the fighters level of sucking (damage only), or letting the fighter (all non casters really) have plot based contrivances that can largely accomplish the same thing as magic. Take your pick.
Or the fighter has the stats to do a whole bunch of stuff, and then takes themes that will reinforce what he wants to do. In most situations he will always perform better than the wizard at whatever he tries to do because he won't need to roll. My simple suggestion that the wizard must always roll when using a spell means that spellcasting will never be better than having the stats and themes to accomplish the task.
Yes the wizard gets to do everything, or well has systemic access to it with limitations per game such as having to find the spell in the game world. Or the wizard can only personally invent or research a certain number of spells so the list of spells he has access to is controlled partially by him and partially by the DM. Giving the DM a measure of control over the strength and capabilities of the wizard. However even with access to spells that have the capability to accomplish anything the wizard will never be better at something than someone actually trained and capable of doing something. It will always be better for the rogue to pick locks, it will always be better for the fighter to just move the boulder, it will always be better for the bard to talk to the people the group needs to talk to. Because all of those classes are specialized in doing those things, and the wizard can't use spells to be the best at those things. He may luck out and those things might work out, but it's always just a chance with him. Whereas the fighter with an 18 strength and some bonuses to strength based checks (gained from a theme) just says, "I move the boulder", and the DM says, "the boulder is moved" (anyone else hear that in the cartoon voice from avatar).
With him not being able to do it as well as his fellow party members it doesn't matter if the wizard has access to the spells that allow him to accomplish things that others in the party can accomplish because no wizard in their right mind would waste a spell slot on something someone in their party is always going to do better.
This is already a giant middle finger to everyone that likes playing casters. I say that because it means, barring getting lucky on ability score rolls, the wizard will never have the satisfaction of not having to roll to accomplish something, and will more than likely use his precious magic to ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT. See how that is nice and limiting. The rogue could pick the lock no problem if he was here. The wizard just had to use two knocks to get it open because his first attempt failed entirely. The system I suggest, using the things that have been said by the devs thusfar, actually gimps the wizard into near uselessness as compared to everyone else in the party.
Also the other point I make is that by selecting the fighter class you are actively choosing to be the bar none best in an area, namely fighting. You can't be bar none the best in a given area, an entire pillar no less, then be the best in other areas as well. You can totally be at best mediocre in all areas though.
Here is the fun part:
The wizard is a generalist, and is at best mediocre in all areas where his theme and stats don't match up to make him good. The fighter is a specialist, he is the best in his field and that is fighting. By selecting the Fighter you have selected this specialization within your character. By selecting themes you will select other specializations for your character.
yet again try to grasp the main concept that every argument I see ignores:
Fighter only describes a portion of your character, not the entirety of it. Your character will totally have a well rounded skillset, if you want it to. The fighter class isn't where it comes from. It comes from being a knight or a noble or a diplomat or something to that effect. The roundness that you demand for your character does not need to come from just your class. It comes from the combination of class and theme. That is the basis of the entire system so far as they have explained.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 2:03PM
#536
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2012
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Or the fighter has the stats to do a whole bunch of stuff, and then takes themes that will reinforce what he wants to do. In most situations he will always perform better than the wizard at whatever he tries to do because he won't need to roll. My simple suggestion that the wizard must always roll when using a spell means that spellcasting will never be better than having the stats and themes to accomplish the task.
So wizards will get spells, but not stats or themes? That doesn't make much sense. Everyone has stats. Would you have the fighter roll more dice for his or something?
Fighter only describes a portion of your character, not the entirety of it. Your character will totally have a well rounded skillset, if you want it to. The fighter class isn't where it comes from. It comes from being a knight or a noble or a diplomat or something to that effect. The roundness that you demand for your character does not need to come from just your class. It comes from the combination of class and theme. That is the basis of the entire system so far as they have explained.
So, a Wizard is a complete class, and Fighter just the combat slice? A sort of class fragment that you would add to to create a complete character?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 2:34PM
#537
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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I have to say I am curious as to how far the new edition will change up the Linear Fighter Quadratic Wizard problem. D&D has never been my rpg of choice(I'm a CWoD/NWoD guy) but lately after getting back into reading stuff like Giants in the Playground and checking out some stuff like Pathfinder,etc I've come around to wanting to try out a D&D game again. While I don't have as much invested in things as long time D&D fans I still hope they aggresively look into it as a design consideration. I checked out 4e but.....well I didn't care for it's mechanics I'll say. So while I don't want to see the new edition address it how they, I've heard, addressed it in 4e. As a fan of rogues I hope they give it due consideration.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 3:19PM
#538
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Or the fighter has the stats to do a whole bunch of stuff, and then takes themes that will reinforce what he wants to do. In most situations he will always perform better than the wizard at whatever he tries to do because he won't need to roll. My simple suggestion that the wizard must always roll when using a spell means that spellcasting will never be better than having the stats and themes to accomplish the task.
So wizards will get spells, but not stats or themes? That doesn't make much sense. Everyone has stats. Would you have the fighter roll more dice for his or something?
Fighter only describes a portion of your character, not the entirety of it. Your character will totally have a well rounded skillset, if you want it to. The fighter class isn't where it comes from. It comes from being a knight or a noble or a diplomat or something to that effect. The roundness that you demand for your character does not need to come from just your class. It comes from the combination of class and theme. That is the basis of the entire system so far as they have explained.
So, a Wizard is a complete class, and Fighter just the combat slice? A sort of class fragment that you would add to to create a complete character?
No the wizard is also only a character slice because the Wizard class gives absolutely no feature other than spellcasting. The Wizard gets little to no bonus to anything that isn't in some way related to magic, and he will have to chose specific options and wont have access to all of the things a wizard can do. The wizard just gets magic thats all its got. Yeah if he has an 18 strength he can do the stuff someone with an 18 strength can but every class can do that. He doesn't get the bonus to strength based checks that the fighter would get (meaning a fighter with the exact same stat would always be better), or the social interaction bonus the fighter would get when talking about fighting related topics. He would get themes but say he has a theme that gives a bonus to checks for picking locks. Unless he is actually using dex to pick the lock then the bonus goes to his roll and won't let him auto pass ever. He could totally use his dex score if he wants to use his dex score instead of magic but he could do that anyways no matter if he was a fighter, or wizard, or a ranger, so the class affects nothing there. If he has a good dex then he has a good dex you can't complain about that. Yeah if someone has 3 18s they are going to be better at more things than someone that doesn't have any 18s. That's how stats work.
If you go with the a standard array lets say 16, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8 and give it to both people yeah the wizard will have a chance at doing a lot of things by throwing a 16 in int and taking a race and class combo that throw that up to an 18, but for the most part the wizard won't be auto completing many things that aren't knowledge checks, and won't be doing as much damage or be as accurate in combat as the fighter (as the fighter should be bar none the best at combat)
The fighter with an 18 strength will pretty much no matter what auto pass all strength based checks at least for a bulk of the game till you hit high level play. So every single athletics check is just passed no questions asked because at that point he doesn't even need to roll. That might not seem like alot but it is. Think of every strength related action you could take and your fighter just does it. The wizard will have to roll with at most I'm going to guess a +4 bonus to the roll. See where that makes a giant disparity between their capabilities. The fighter just does it, the Wizard gets to roll with a +4. On a check difficulty of 18 that your fighter passes instantly without a check the wizard has a less than 50% chance of accomplishing the same task, the wizard would need to roll a freaking 14 or higher to accomplish the same thing you just did without even needing to roll a check.
I have no idea if this is the way things are actually going to work, but it is the way I would do things to keep it somewhat balanced. Although looking at it some of these spells may need to give a slight bonus to the check value. Mainly because, while I can appreciate people not wanting the wizard being able to do everything instantly, the wizard should be able to have at least a 50/50 shot at getting it done with magic or at least something better than 70/30. Maybe a bonus that follows the prep at higher spell slot values trend. Maybe a +2 per spell level with caps on certain spells. That way preping a knock in a 5th level spell slot gives you a +10 to the check I mean that makes it almost a garunteed success flipping the chances from 70/30 to 15/85 to unlock that DC 18 lock with your 18 int, but you did just sac an entire 5th level spell slot for the knock spell. However 5th level would be the highest level you can put knock at.
Not a perfect idea yet and kinda pure conjecture but I could see it working this way. Also sorry for the horrendous writting I am at work.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 26, 2012 - 10:28PM
#539
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2006
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The only way you can have non-combat parity between the fighter and the wizard is either greatly limiting the wizard down to the fighters level of sucking (damage only), or letting the fighter (all non casters really) have plot based contrivances that can largely accomplish the same thing as magic. Take your pick.
Nice, sums up what I gotta say about the subject pretty nice.
The essential theme song-
Get a little bit a fluff da' fluff, get a little bit a fluff da' fluff! (ooh yeah) Repeat
Unless noted otherwise every thing I post is my opinion, and probably should be taken as tongue in cheek any way.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 27, 2012 - 5:42AM
#540
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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The only way you can have non-combat parity between the fighter and the wizard is either greatly limiting the wizard down to the fighters level of sucking (damage only), or letting the fighter (all non casters really) have plot based contrivances that can largely accomplish the same thing as magic. Take your pick.
Nice, sums up what I gotta say about the subject pretty nice.
except if you read my suggestion where thats shown to be false. Especially given the way stats will work in 5e.
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