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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 10:17AM
#161
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I don't think anyone here is saying that draining creatures should be used as written in earlier editions. I believe some tweaking I required. Along with notes to the DM on how to handle such potentially devestating foes. All we want is the opportunity to use said drains. I like the concepts. Not necessarily the execution or lack of advice.
+1. And yet some keep beating that 1e strawman.
Here is what I'd like.
1. static x.p. drain (maybe not an entire level unless you are low).
2. no negative energy protections.
3. no restoration spells
4. clear guidance in MM on use of said creature.
5. a warning label (Approach preferred by gritty gaming style).
Well, I like 2 and 3 a lot. I can see how 1 is necessary in general and a really good idea in a game with flat math for hit and AC. What I still don't get is the "proper" method to use draining monsters.
Is it...
A) They can sometimes jump out and smack the PCs just like anything else can.
B) PCs always deserve a chance to take precautions that reduce or eliminate the risk of being drained.
C) Something else?
My preference is (A) because I don't see how (B) represents a legitimate challenge. Note that (A) says sometimes, not always - the idea there is that draining monsters would be used the exact same way as others (sometimes with warning, sometimes without). But I don't know how this works in other people's games, so I'd like to hear more.
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 10:28AM
#162
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2012
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Let's never do level or ability drains again. Undead are supposed to be nasty, but a simple weakened condition is a much easier way to handle a shadow than losing 1-4 STR and dying at 0, and it's fairer, too, since it reduces everyone's damage. Similarly, draining healing surges represents 'feeding on life force' pretty well, without me having the re-write my entire character sheet every round.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 11:49AM
#163
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Date Joined:
Jan 18, 2012
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Xp drain and level drain are clumsy mechanisms. I like the idea of non-hp damage but adding afflictions is a better way of handling it.
I'd actually like to see more afflictions in the game. Not just drains and curses but things like a bite attack that if you are below X hp you must save against or lose a limb.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 11:08PM
#164
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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It mimics Con damage fairly well. I'm not so sure about the others. Perhaps the best route to take in modeling this, if we're talking 4e mechanics, is a disease track.
The thing I do not like about the disease track is that it has the potential to become a spiral of doom.
That's certainly true, but it could be modified a bit to fit by removing the potential to "get worse." Theoretica
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
Show
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 11:10PM
#165
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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It mimics Con damage fairly well. I'm not so sure about the others. Perhaps the best route to take in modeling this, if we're talking 4e mechanics, is a disease track.
The thing I do not like about the disease track is that it has the potential to become a spiral of doom.
That's certainly true, but it could be modified a bit to fit by removing the potential to "get worse." Theoretically, an ability damaged character shouldn't "get worse" unless they're ability damaged again before being cured.
The "Get worse" would be "permanent penalty without a ritual or cleansing or restoration of some kind". Otherwise, getting better would slowly remove the penalty.
As for the penalty, I'd prefer it be static, not "1dX" damage to a stat. More like, "Penalty Melee/Damage/Athletics".
I'm not against "drain" as a danger, but as the work it sounds like it took to adjust damn near everything. I want to be able to have complex characters as well as conditions, diseases, curses and the like, and as long as those dangers provide for the game while not making the whole thing an exercise in spreadsheet accounting, it's a good direction.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
Show
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 20, 2012 - 5:06AM
#166
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2009
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... What I still don't get is the "proper" method to use draining monsters.
Is it...
A) They can sometimes jump out and smack the PCs just like anything else can.
I might foreshadow that the adventure is undead themed and there might be clues but clues are often ignored so in theory yes.
B) PCs always deserve a chance to take precautions that reduce or eliminate the risk of being drained.
Not always but foreshadowing is fine. The precautions would often just be different battle tactics.
C) Something else?
My preference is (A) because I don't see how (B) represents a legitimate challenge. Note that (A) says sometimes, not always - the idea there is that draining monsters would be used the exact same way as others (sometimes with warning, sometimes without). But I don't know how this works in other people's games, so I'd like to hear more.
To me the warning in the monster manual would be more like "this playstyle is controversial and depending on how you like to play this may or may not be for you. Use the other definition for negative energy attacks if you prefer something less gritty."
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1 year ago ::
Apr 20, 2012 - 6:32AM
#167
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@ Emerikol: So something like the party is heading down a narrow corridor and 4 shadows pop out of the walls is a legit encounter, as long as you hinted they might see undead and they could buy some Lesser Restoration potions?
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 20, 2012 - 6:48AM
#168
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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@ Emerikol: So something like the party is heading down a narrow corridor and 4 shadows pop out of the walls is a legit encounter, as long as you hinted they might see undead and they could buy some Lesser Restoration potions?
Eh, that's kindof a loaded question. I generally don't like doing many ambushes in corridors. It happens, but it usually becomes chain of players into the maw of some beast.
That being said I'd much rather have some knowledge ahead of time, pick up maybe one potion, but more likely buy combat equipment made to take on shadows. (See if someone will let me have/loan-me a ghost touch weapon or oil.) After that the shadows should be a cakewalk. They have pretty crappy HP and a solid assault by the cleric/fighter (depending on what's in your party. I've run parties without either and with both) should end the fight there.
My point being that I'd prefer shadows to the 4 armed gargoyle in the tomb of horrors while inside a 5 ft hallway. (An old DM did this. Like that freakin' goyle needed to be more difficult.)
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1 year ago ::
Apr 20, 2012 - 7:08AM
#169
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@ Emerikol: So something like the party is heading down a narrow corridor and 4 shadows pop out of the walls is a legit encounter, as long as you hinted they might see undead and they could buy some Lesser Restoration potions?
Eh, that's kindof a loaded question. I generally don't like doing many ambushes in corridors. It happens, but it usually becomes chain of players into the maw of some beast.
That being said I'd much rather have some knowledge ahead of time, pick up maybe one potion, but more likely buy combat equipment made to take on shadows. (See if someone will let me have/loan-me a ghost touch weapon or oil.) After that the shadows should be a cakewalk. They have pretty crappy HP and a solid assault by the cleric/fighter (depending on what's in your party. I've run parties without either and with both) should end the fight there.
My point being that I'd prefer shadows to the 4 armed gargoyle in the tomb of horrors while inside a 5 ft hallway. (An old DM did this. Like that freakin' goyle needed to be more difficult.)
It's not as loaded as you think. If I'm running an encounter with insubstantial monsters, they're going to be lurking in pitch darkness and hiding in the walls, ceiling, and floor, alert for the least hint that the living may be nearby.
For specific setup, I'd rather not have a 5 foot corridor with a conga line of PCs. That keeps some people safe in the middle. Shadows should ambush where they can gang up on surprised targets, after all.
I don't really like the idea of putting a ghost touch weapon in the party's hands. These creatures are CR 3, so the martial characters may have +1 weapons at this point, but that's it. Getting better items than that (even as loaners for a single dungeon) does indeed make the fight a lot easier. Also, that implies that they're specifically warned that insubstantial undead are in the dungeon, which I think is too much, but maybe not for everyone.
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 20, 2012 - 7:24AM
#170
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
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@ Emerikol: So something like the party is heading down a narrow corridor and 4 shadows pop out of the walls is a legit encounter, as long as you hinted they might see undead and they could buy some Lesser Restoration potions?
Eh, that's kindof a loaded question. I generally don't like doing many ambushes in corridors. It happens, but it usually becomes chain of players into the maw of some beast.
That being said I'd much rather have some knowledge ahead of time, pick up maybe one potion, but more likely buy combat equipment made to take on shadows. (See if someone will let me have/loan-me a ghost touch weapon or oil.) After that the shadows should be a cakewalk. They have pretty crappy HP and a solid assault by the cleric/fighter (depending on what's in your party. I've run parties without either and with both) should end the fight there.
My point being that I'd prefer shadows to the 4 armed gargoyle in the tomb of horrors while inside a 5 ft hallway. (An old DM did this. Like that freakin' goyle needed to be more difficult.)
It's not as loaded as you think. If I'm running an encounter with insubstantial monsters, they're going to be lurking in pitch darkness and hiding in the walls, ceiling, and floor, alert for the least hint that the living may be nearby.
For specific setup, I'd rather not have a 5 foot corridor with a conga line of PCs. That keeps some people safe in the middle. Shadows should ambush where they can gang up on surprised targets, after all.
I don't really like the idea of putting a ghost touch weapon in the party's hands. These creatures are CR 3, so the martial characters may have +1 weapons at this point, but that's it. Getting better items than that (even as loaners for a single dungeon) does indeed make the fight a lot easier. Also, that implies that they're specifically warned that insubstantial undead are in the dungeon, which I think is too much, but maybe not for everyone.
Fair point, I was assuming a lot. Though I certainly wouldn't give it to them without there being some return on investment. Even with the 50/50 chance, a single shadow should fall fairly quickly. How many shadows and players (at what level) are we talking? Because several CR3 creatures does affect the encounter CR and too many may throw off what little balance CR provides. (Or so I hear about CR. I've rarely had a problem with CR save one time when I sent 4 consecutive waves of orcs at a level 3 party. I was rolling in front of the players and triple crited the party Sorc. That was not the way I wanted to end up killing him. (He wanted to die so that he could become a Blood magus.))
I actually think the corridor would be worse because it may prevent the cleric from using his turn ability depending on party line up. Turn could be game changing in this fight.
But yeah, that is the scary thing about any monster good at hiding (or in this case appearing to disappear completely) , you never quite know where they'll show. Good for horror campaigns.
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